217 Lauren Perkins - Think Like a Brand, Act Like a Startup

In this episode, Jason and Lauren discuss:

• Leveraging Brand and Startup Superpowers
• Harnessing Constraints for Startup Success
• Navigating the Challenges of Entrepreneurship
• Embracing Challenges and Imperfection for Growth and Success while Seeking Support
• Finding Stability and Conscious Leadership

Key Takeaways:

• Explore how experiences in athletics and retail can shape an entrepreneurial journey and provide valuable lessons
• Understand the value of combining passion for teaching, coaching, and building to support entrepreneurs
• Gain insights on leveraging the strengths of both brands and startups to create impactful ventures
• Learn how startups can harness constraints as a superpower by focusing on high-value activities and human connections
• Appreciate the importance of balancing stability and agility in startups and personal lives
  
  

“I'm really passionate about helping and supporting other entrepreneurs and innovators to build and scale and get their ideas out there in the world, but also to build amazing cultures and ecosystems. ”

 - Lauren Perkins

Connect with Lauren Perkins:

• Website
• LinkedIn
  
  

Connect with Steve and Jason:

• LinkedIn: Jason or Steve

• Website: Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking

• Email: grow@rewireinc.com
  
  

Listen to the podcast here:

Lauren Perkins- Think Like a Brand, Act Like a Startup

Hello and welcome everybody. This is your host, Jason Abell of the podcast called The Insight Interviews, and boy oh boy, do I have a special guest for you today. Her name is Lauren Perkins, but boy oh boy, there's so many things that are behind that name. But first of all, Lauren, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

You're named after a famous actress we just decided, right?

Indeed. Lauren Bacall.

There’s going to be a subset of our audience that is familiar with and that really enjoys Lauren Bacall, and I don't know, for me, I'm already endeared to you, because my mother liked Lauren Bacall, and I just remember sitting through as a kid like some of those old-time movies, like, yeah, really, really good stuff.

My parents love the old school black and white films too.

For sure, for sure. Well, you and I have talked prerecording, and I know that you've listened to a couple of the episodes. And if you have, you know that the very first question has nothing to do with your profession, which I really want to dive into. Has nothing to do with the books that you write, which I also really want to dive into. But today, as you and I engage each other, Lauren, what strikes you that you're particularly grateful for?

Well, it's so funny because in listening to episodes before we got on, I love that you start with gratitude, because I have a very like, deep, spiritual like wellness side to me that a lot of people don't even know about unless they practice yoga with me or have been on a retreat or something. But I think especially these days, the thing that I'm the most grateful for is that practice, is the practice of being able to reflect and go inwards and just like really, like reground and get in touch with myself, my own emotions, my thoughts, and then be able to say, hmm, what can I learn from that? What knowing is coming from it like, what's mine to do? Like, and some of the other sort of, like, really reflective questions I try to ask myself a lot these days, like, what would this look like if it was easy? So, I'm really grateful for having those deep roots and the fact that it's just part of all of your episodes.

We're going to come back to a lot of what you just said, because I have an insight into where our conversation is going to go, and I'm going to pull from some of the stuff that you just said, rather than going there now. Is that cool?

Absolutely, I love going with the flow. Like you could have a whole plan, and then you get into it and you're like, it's going a different direction.

No, we're gonna definitely pull from some of what you just said, just about reflecting and going through transitions. In fact, you're going through some transitions yourself right now. You're writing a book that's about to launch. You've most recently been with a really cool division of Microsoft, and you've got some branding and scaling, you know, amazing things that you've done. For our audience that might not know who you are, Lauren, would you mind just giving us a tidbit or two about who the heck is Lauren Perkins?

It's always such a big question when somebody asks you that, especially when you put yourself in all the different contexts and all the different roles that we each have as humans. I think in the professional sense of like who Lauren is, is somebody who's deeply passionate about supporting entrepreneurs and innovators to get their ideas out there in the world, to validate them, to help them stick and create the impact that they started for. And I think that's one of the roots that a lot of entrepreneurs, as they get into the doing, it can get so hard. It can feel sometimes like such a struggle, like you're pushing it uphill. And that's very true and very real, so, I want to acknowledge that. But in terms of who I am, like, I guess I was born to be an entrepreneur, and it's so funny, because there was a freelance gig I had when I first moved to New York in my early 20s, and somebody who was also an entrepreneur, that was one of our vendors, said that, and I was like, you're crazy. Why would I want to do that? And I guess it's just like, sometimes you just have those ingredients in your DNA, right? So, for me, like, who I am is, I'm a serial entrepreneur. I'm really passionate about helping and supporting other entrepreneurs and innovators to build and scale and get their ideas out there in the world, but also to build amazing cultures and ecosystems. Because some of the places I've had the pleasure of teaching or coaching or advising other startups and helping them, are, you know, in places where entrepreneurship isn't the first thing that people think about. Whether that's the Middle East, or whether that's, you know, when I first started teaching in Europe, as well, people thought like, oh, you know, you have a stable job, you have a pension, because there's all those beautiful European systems in place that give you that stability. So, entrepreneurship wasn't always, you know, the thing.

I mean, even in your answer, you're mentioning the Middle East, New York, teaching, coaching, Europe.

I'm a global citizen. Always have been.

There are so many different directions that we're going to need to go in. So, entrepreneurship being in your DNA and growing and scaling and helping other entrepreneurs, again, under the umbrella of still getting to know you a little bit, what are one or two stories from some of your background that led to the DNA piece, or being passionate about helping other entrepreneurs? Like I don't know. I want to dive into so many pieces, but what comes to mind for you, Lauren, when I asked that question?

Yeah, I'll tie a couple pieces together that we've already started talking started talking about. So, I was a triathlete growing up, started as a swimmer, got into triathlons with my dad. And when I was building companies, early on, I was teaching group exercise, and that was spinning, that was boot camp, a lot of other stuff. And so, I think that, like, those roots deep into, like, getting into stuff that's hard and really then finding, like, the beauty in the hard work, but also, like, how do you find that flow? Because the absolute best athletes make it look effortless. And I think that, like, one of the things that was really fun for me coming into entrepreneurship, because that wasn't originally my goal or my ambition, was bringing in that, like, athletic nature of what might this look like if it was successful? If we were winning? Like, how do we how do we compete? And what game are we playing? Because sometimes I think you don't necessarily know when you're doing something new. It's like, are you going up against an incumbent? Are you creating a new space? And there's a lot of opportunities that sort of put me on this path. Luckily, early on, when I got an opportunity to run a concept shop for Nike, it was getting to run a mini business, and that was really my first taste of what is it like to have accountability of a PNL? To really have to get to know your customers and like, what products or services do they want? And, you know, how do you move them into action? And Nike just does such a fantastic job of connecting with its customers.

Oh, yeah.

And so, one of the things that was really fun, having sort of this concept shop that I was running for them in Boston, was I really got to know the customers. I got to interact with them. Because the first business I was running was, you know, in real life, in person, it wasn't a digital tech business. And I think a lot of those stories and learnings really served me super well when it then became also intangible. Because when you're working in tech, sometimes it's hard to connect those dots and make it human and be like, okay, well, what do they really need, and what do they value, and what are they struggling with and like, what is that sense of identity that I can tap into that like we as a company believe in? And our customers will, like, deeply understand and be, like, drawn to and motivated by.

Nike, Microsoft. These are things that, those are the bigger companies, but for your own entrepreneurship, like you mentioned tangibility of something that that you were doing. What are a flavor of some things that you started up or entrepreneurs? Like I'd love to, I don't know whether I'm don't want to dive into the triathlon piece of you, the athlete in you, or the or the business side of you, but what are some ventures that that you've been involved with from the get-go?

Yeah, absolutely. So, one that I think kind of carries the story forward and gives you insight into, like, probably like my soul and who I am is General Assembly. So General Assembly started as a co working space for entrepreneurs. You had to apply to get in. So, there was, you know, a vetting process of, we're really trying to build a community here. And I think for me, like when it started with, like, ideas on a napkin and just being early. And I wasn't a founder, but I was a founding sort of instructor there when we realized that, oh, the community actually needs to learn from each other. And so, I got to teach one of the first like workshops that we ever did, and it was on community. And it was the first course that General Assembly ever did, back before it was like, oh, this might actually be the business model. Maybe the space is just the catalyst for the community. But it tapped into something that really came from sports. I loved teaching and coaching, and I loved building things. And at General Assembly, I got to start putting all those pieces together, because I'd been doing consulting and I'd been partnering with founders, you know, in that, like CMO role. So, you know, often very early on, like, they hadn't had any marketing people, and so it was like trying to figure out, like, well, who's the customer, and, you know, what is our category, and then how do we build a brand message and story around that, in order to, you know, connect with that audience or our investors, in order to get that capital in to then go bigger? And so General Assembly really just let me lean into working with like, groups of entrepreneurs at once. And for me, like, again, that sports, it's like, it's all about energy. So, when you can get a group of entrepreneurs that are all building things together, you just have so much momentum. And I think that's also like such a parallel to entrepreneurship, where it's like, if you can get momentum with your early customers, then that's how you continue it. That's how you create that growth. And so, the community, you know, being the first business class, and then the first course, was really kind of indicative of what it's what General Assembly stood for. But also, for me, it was at the first time I got to, like, really tap into, how can I bring that group fitness energy into the entrepreneurship like world? And so, it was the first, like, melding of those two, and I was just having so much fun.

 

Yeah, well, I can tell even from your body language and the tonality of your voice, like, yes. You know, I asked you a question about passion, and in your answer, you were getting, I felt more and more patience. The good, the good, bubbly stuff there. I feel like that's a good segue into your book. Just think like a brand and act like a startup. Tell me this passion, your experiences, everything has led to, I believe, this book. And so, what is it that you're looking to achieve by writing a book? I mean, first of all, congratulations. As a fellow author, I know from going from this idea of, hey, I'd like to write a book, or I should write a book, or I have to write a book to actually, boom, I have a book in my hand that is no small feat, even in this era of technology. So, I just need to congratulate you around that. It’s a very, very big deal. And, yeah, congratulations, and I can't wait for it to be out.

Thank you.

You're very welcome. With that being said, What's the big idea of it? What would you like to have happen as a result of you writing that book?

So, it's really almost a decade, really more than a decade of insights and learnings. I started writing it in 2019, before I joined Microsoft. And actually one of the reasons I took the role at Microsoft when they were really kind of encouraging me, like saying, like, hey, as a founder, gone to market with a larger organization, and you've been able to leverage their resources and their industry expertise and their know how, like, imagine what you could do if you had a whole portfolio of startups to help. So, you kind of see that thread of General Assembly, Microsoft. It's like that community element of it's not just one, it's, you know, a portfolio of startups, and so, you know, when I was writing the early drafts of it, before joining, it was interesting, because it evolved quite a bit in 2019. And then in 2020 before, you know, Inc originals, who was publishing the book, really kind of got involved and started working on, like, the developmental edit of like, where does this go?

Yeah.

But the seeds of it all came from this idea of, if we could leverage the superpowers of brand and startup and cut out all the fat, how much more powerful, how much more insightful, how much more impactful could those ventures be? And it wasn't just like fairy dust, like, you know, some people are like, oh, well, they don't understand what brand is or how to use it. It was actually startups that were creating their own brand, which is something that General Assembly did. It's something that Nike did. It's something that Microsoft did, and it was a core part of how they got recognized, how they really came to be, but then also how their customers. Like saw them, and the perception and recognizing them. And so, when we connect all of these pieces together, you can't just have brand, because that's all stability and, you know, sort of slow-moving pieces. You need that sort of, like, characteristically, like sparky, energetic, agile side of the startup. And so, because I'd started at big brands early in my career, way back to Nike, and then, you know, ended up, not only as a founder, being pulled into the Microsoft for startups ecosystem because of my last startup where I went to market with a larger, sort of, you know, investor and joint venture partner, it was like, how could more startups spend benefit from this? Like, how could we leverage Microsoft resources on behalf of startups? And so that was, like, a compelling opportunity for me to be able to really, kind of put a lot of my thinking to practice at scale with a very large portfolio, and, you know, then to be able to help individual startups, but then that, as well as sort of, like, more at a collective. So we could dive down so many different levels, but the premise is that that brand side gives you the connectivity to customers, to market research, to the resources that big brands and corporates have. But then, like, how do we take experimentation and agile practices from startup? And then there's a ton of stuff that needs to kind of get cut out. And so, it's really about focusing on the things that are the most important and then cutting the things that you don't need to be putting energy into.

That concept of cutting things out and only focusing on what you need to focus on, I think there's so many people in business that can go, yeah, Lauren, that makes a ton of sense. But then, like, rubber meets the road, okay, what do I cut out? And so, I guess I'm formulating a question here. When the title of the book, you know, think like a brand, act like a startup, I think what you're saying there, and then tell me if I'm on the right track, because I haven't had the opportunity to read the book yet because it's not out yet, but I want to, if I'm thinking like a brand, but on the ground level, I'm acting like a startup, what does that look like? Like what am I cutting out?

                                                                                                 
"I think the biggest one of the things that makes startups successful is the constraint, right? Like you don't have all the time, money, resources, and you can either use it as a superpower and as a way of enabling you, or you can use it as something that hinders you, where you're always going, well, coulda, woulda, shoulda, if I had all of the XYZ."

And so, the constraint is, where am I gonna get the most impact? And startups that do extremely well know how to harness this, right? We've seen a lot of startups that have been very successful in saying, I'm only going to focus on X. And so, I think one of the biggest things in terms of how do you apply that constraint, is making sure that you have, like, a stable base of how you're going to experiment. How are you going to do things? Also, how are you going to prioritize your pipeline of like, the activities that you're going to do? And this is something that I did at Microsoft as well, and when I was looking at my work, and looking at the team's work, it's like, okay, if we only did three things, what would create the most value? Now, when you're in a larger organism, you also are looking at it from the perspective of, there's all these other groups and teams that are going to keep existing, whether I work with them or don't work with them, whether I leverage them or not. And so that's an opportunity to say, what are the things that this team or that I can do that make the biggest impact? And then what are all the things that either somebody else is better suited to do or just doesn't need to get done? And so that works in both environments, and depending on your context, you're going to get a different answer. If I'm running a startup, when I ask that question, it's going to be, what are the couple of things I need to do? Win customers, keep customers. If you're venture backed, win investors and keep them. Then you're going to have your people, right? Like, how do I create an amazing culture and keep them super engaged? And then also, when somebody has outgrown their time with you, how do you release them with like, grace and love and like, you know, kind of keep them in the alumni family, because that stakeholder stickiness is so valuable? So, when you think about the things that are the most important, a lot of it's the human elements. And then it's connecting to the customer, to your investors, to your people, and really figuring out from there what is going to draw them in, what is going to sustain them. And that also plays into a huge premise of the book on stability agility, which, it's not just about the organization being stable and agile, it's about the humans in it being stable and agile, because that is what is actually going to be sustainable. You can't stay agile 24/7. You will burn your people out. You will probably drive the organization into the ground. And we've seen plenty of stories of that. Plenty of founders and their people have experienced that, and I think it's where we get a lot of churn.

Your language around some of that was just giving me the warm and fuzzies, like, you know, when you talk about people leaving and having an organization, or leading an organization that does that with grace and professionalism, I think you even said love, like so that when people leave, they still have the ability to be cheerleaders of yours. Sticky. I think you use the word alumni, like those are things that organizations strive for, but Lauren, I will tell you in my day to day, you know, coaching chair, those are things that I don't see very often. Like oftentimes people leave and there's explosions, and people are mad and, you know, whatever, and so, so many things that you said that, like you said, there's paths that that we could go down. When you think about some of the ways that you first answered that question about, you know, keeping the agility and the constraints, I think you said using the constraints almost as a superpower, as opposed to saying, like, I can't do this because I'm constrained by money or time, or it's only me right now, or it's only me and my small team, as opposed to, like, using that as an excuse, you're saying actually, it allows you to have a superpower that you wouldn't have otherwise, because it really forces you to focus in.

It can enable you, if you leverage it.

Yeah. So, so, thank you. Do you have an example, like, do you have a story or an example of an organization that you've worked with where you've seen that, like that right there? I can put my finger on it. That's where the constraint became, the superpower. I don't mean to put you on the spot there, but-

Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting especially because I've done a lot behind the scenes with startups, and some people in the startup ecosystem know me as a startup fixer, which is something that I did for quite a long time, that I haven't had to do in a bit in in more recent years. And so, I try to be very careful about not giving other companies stories away without their permission, because most people don't love giving their failure stories.

Yeah, I get it.

But in terms of answering that with integrity, which is something I really believe in, one startup in the health tech space that just doing really remarkable stuff, run and founded by a doctor, so not an entrepreneur, and it was really fascinating, because they were going after a lot of stuff on the technology front. They were going after a lot of stuff on the research front, and then they were trying to go after all these customer segments. And I remember saying to him, when we were talking about scale, I'm like, let's look at the numbers, let's look at the strategy, let's look at the plans, and let's pick the thing that is driving the most impact the fastest. And then we did. And so that customer segment, we were like, okay, we are going to focus on this customer segment 70% of the entire team's time, energy, effort. Now sometimes that can be that if you have some experimental stuff, you have a person that's doing that, right? So, you can sometimes break it out based on who the people are, as opposed to, like the whole the whole team. But I love this 70% because it really says, until this line of business, or this product or this audience segment is a total cash cow, we're going to focus on the audience that's moving the fastest, that's generating the most revenue, and that we have the most opportunity to continue to scale. And the reason I give that as like a very practical area, in this case, they were focusing on sports teams, and they had already inroads with, you know, the NFL and a couple other like, big organizations, and I was exploit that until there is no more exploiting. And that's not to be crude. It's to say, build as much momentum, stay focused on your core as much as possible, because that is where momentum and traction will take place. And then let's choose a thing for 20% of effort that, if it was your upside, would just make the world of difference for the next phase of growth. And then 10% something else that's experimental, so that 20% was actually getting them in with a technology team at Microsoft for startups, and making sure that they were able to do business with them, and they were able to, like, get the technology all lined up and integrated. And when you're doing like, health tech, it's not as simple as, you know, open up this API and plug in this thing. It's a lot more integration to make happen.

Sure.

And so that was the 20% was, let's crush this next.

Yeah, right.

And it's like, and it's happening in parallel. So, these are three parallel tracks, and then that 10% was getting them in with some larger corporate and government contracts. But it was 10% it's like we know this 10% is probably going to take a year to two years, maybe even three, to really hum, so, if we focus on this first vertical and the product that they need in order to keep that quick sales cycle and revenue running, and keep building that core business, then you have that massive innovation technology win as your 20% and then 10% is what would it look like if we could just blow this out of the water with massive customers? But it's a much longer sales cycle in order to get those huge revenue wins. And when you can think very logically in that way, and then you can communicate it to your team, to your board, investors, because sometimes you'll have an advisory board, and you'll have investors. There's not always overlap, depending on, you know, how you've set everything up. That's really important. Like, we are putting 70% into this core. And I think, honestly, a lot of entrepreneurs, and I will say that I am one of them, we often get so distracted by all of the exciting, interesting opportunities, that we want to leave that 70% and sometimes that 70% actually becomes like 30%, but it's really hard to thrive if you don't have, like, a core offering and customer base that is repeatable. And so, this is where really digging into product market fit is so important, because I've done a lot of fixing, I've worked with startups that are generating 10 million a year and they don't have product market fit. And I've looked at these companies, and, you know, in the beginning I was like, you know, working with, like, other people, because I had a whole consulting practice when I was partnering with founders, and I'm like, this can't be true. When we're working with you know, smaller startups, it was like, in the revenue was, like, inconsistent or unstable, you're, you know, in like, under a million or 1,000,002 in annual revenue, it's a little bit easier to understand, like, you know, maybe there's a lot more manual effort, but product market fit becomes the most sustainable business is product market channel fit. And that is, we have a product that the market wants, and we have total clarity on what that market is, who that customer is, who the decision maker is, how much budget. And then the channel fit is, how do I acquire them? Where am I acquiring them? What does it cost me to acquire them? And that's not just like my former, you know, CMO marketing brain, that is like true business strategy, saying, if we don't know where we're getting customers and how we're going to consistently get them and what's going to retain them, then you haven't actually built something that's sustainable or repeatable. And that's where we get back to the wellness conversation that we started with, which is you have to find things that are sustainable. And sometimes it's the practices that the individual people and then the teams create and practice over time create stability. And that's why routines are so important. Whether that's having a daily stand up or a weekly prioritization meeting, or how you run your experiments on new stuff, I think that it's really important to kind of put these pieces together. Do we have product market fit? Yes or no. Do we have product market channel fit, If YES to product market? If no, how are we going to validate this? Because it doesn't matter what kind of entrepreneur you are, or what kind of team you're a part of, if you're part of a business and you're part of the core team that's driving growth forward, those are really important questions to ask and answers to seek if you don't have the answers yet, in order to get to a place where it's like, what would this look like if it was easy, if it was sustainable, if it was successful, so that we can reach the impact that we set out to achieve.

You just gave an MBA in entrepreneurship. That's why I let you roll.

And you didn't have to spend 100k to do it.

Lauren, that was entrepreneurial gold. I'm using different language than you, but what I heard was niching within the niche, that's your channel niching. You are then able to produce super clarity for yourself and your troops on where you're going, but the 70% and man, when there's any ambiguity or clear line of sight that's been broken, that's where I see organizations get mixed up. And then there's this idea and that cool thing that could be done, whatever you're like, no, this is where we're going.

                                                                                                 
"What you say no to is actually one of the most important things. People think it's what you say yes to; it's actually what you say no to."

Right on.

Because, like in any startup, or any you know, tight knit business, you have to reduce the ambiguity as much as possible. And I think where we get a lot of burnout, and there was some recent sort of research and stats around this, that actually burnout doesn't come from being disengaged from your work. It actually comes from being a part of something that you really believe in and being so bought into it that you're willing to give your all to it. And so, I think it's really important to try and get to that clarity, and it's why the early stages of startup is so hard, and why it's so important to get out of that, but to clarify that you've actually gotten there. Because we often say the grass is greener when we get to blah, blah, blah, whether that's product market fit or whatever it is. One, that's not true. There will just be a new problem, a new challenge. And one of the reasons, the biggest reasons, I wrote the book, is I want people to make better mistakes, right? Like you are absolutely going to make them. This is not to say that you're going to take the mistakes out of it, but if you can turn the mistakes into learnings and use language that keeps everyone feeling supported, including yourself, like I'm talking to and about myself, as I say this too, because that's where the humans are really important. Even last night, I was at yoga with a friend, and I was frustrated on something, and I was sharing it with her very openly and very like, heart centered, and she reframed it for me, and I was like, this is why we need each other, because sometimes we can't get out of our own way, and it's why we need community. We need to sort of build our whole like stakeholder, like ecosystem, because that human stuff is where all the juice comes from. And then I get to return that favor for her, when she's in that spot, to say, I can't reframe this like it just seems like it just seems hard, and that's also true. But how do we make it productive?

That's right. The human stuff is where all the juice comes from. Listeners, I hope you got that. That was a tweetable right there. I knew that what you said when we opened the show, and how you answered what you're grateful for would come back, and you just kind of mentioned it, so it did come back. There are so many people that are listening, that are going through some sort of challenge right now, partly because that's just part of life and business. There's just a constant flow of challenges. I remember hearing Mark Zuckerberg. I think it was an interview with Tim Ferriss, but, you know, he was like, hey, when I finally do, I've done my morning routine, I do all these things, but then I'm, boom, I'm engaged in in my email or phone calls, he's like, it's never good news. It's always some big challenge that we need to fix, because that's what rises to my level, are big challenges. And he wasn't bemoaning that. He's just like, that's just the nature of what I do. And it just struck me as, you know, as and we all know different challenges that Facebook has, but we also know that it's huge, and it's widely successful, and it still is, and all of these things. And so, when you say, hey, we're not going to mitigate all of your challenges. In fact, some of your challenges, like we can learn from them, and they can be, you know, really great things. And so, it does bring us back to what you initially said about just being grateful for, you know, reflection, leaning into some of those spaces. Community, you know, you said that. And so, yeah, I'd love a minute or two more on just the importance of that, because I know that there's entrepreneurs and executives that are listening to this, that are going through some challenges right now. What would you what would you say to them?

Well, first of all, you're not alone. I've had my share of challenges. I'm going through many right now, and I think that that's actually that honesty with self and honesty with others is actually really, really important. Like, there's a whole team behind my book, and to be honest, it wouldn't be as great as it is, and it wouldn't be out without them. And I think sometimes we feel this pressure to take not only responsibility, but to take ownership, but that sometimes also leaves others out. And one of the things I've gotten way better at, and I continue to work on, is asking for help and support. I think it's part of being human, right? But then also, it's not just asking for help and support and dumping whatever is happening in your life on somebody else. You have to also participate and be doing your own self work. And I think that this is probably the work of all of our lives, right? How do we figure out what we need in order to feel stable, to feel resourced, to feel well? Because that is what we bring to the table. Like, when we can fill ourselves up, then we flow a different energy. We bring something different to the table. And so, I think in some ways, it's fantastic that we now can be a lot more open than we've ever been before. And I don't just say this because, like, I'm older now. We're all continually getting older, but I think really, when I started, even just admitting that you were wrong or that you made a mistake, felt like such a huge risk. It was like, Oh my God. Like, what if, you know, if you're not the founder, you're like, what if I get fired, or if I'm the founder, like, what if everyone thinks that I'm a failure and they don't want to work for me anymore? And the reality is, if that's true, then whoever is making that choice shouldn't be with you. And when you can have hard conversations from an open place, and I'm by no means a perfect person. And there are plenty of times where I'll have to say, you know what? I wasn't mindful in the way that I communicated that, like I was really under stress or under pressure, and I wish I had done it differently. Could we have the conversation again? Or, you know, do you want to reflect on it? And sometimes the outcome is exactly the same, right? But people feel so much better in the transitions that happen in life. And so, I think there's a number of ways of peeling that onion back that you were talking about in terms of one, how do we find that mindfulness and stay in gratitude? Some of it is self-work. Some of it's having honest and open conversations. Some of its figuring out, how do we build cultures that allow that? Because often what ends up happening is we end up in this thinking and feeling loop, and then we're not taking action. So, there's like, a triangle and actions at the top of the triangle, if we're only thinking and feeling and we're not like, taking a pause in the middle to reflect and be like, well, what's the action that I can take? And how can I get out of this? It often can get bigger and bigger and bigger. And so, in some ways, we become sort of an enemy of our own making, and we make the thing bigger instead of figuring out, okay, what's the learning in this? What can I do differently? Is there an action that I can take, or do I need to just kind of park it, or is the action I need to take talking to another person? When I launched my last startup, I had a coach and a therapist, and I'd never had either before in terms of in business in that way, but I specifically had, like, a coach that I worked with on my own, like personal growth and development and a therapist to work through all of the like, relational and chaos and stress things that came up. Did that make it perfect? Absolutely not. Like you're still building a business with humans who are imperfect. And so, I think that some of it is, is like we all just need to be honest with each other and ourselves that like this isn't meant to be perfect, and like living in that messy present reality while, like staying in a good feeling place is just gold, and it's hard to do. But some of it comes back to like, how do we give ourselves that grace and that sort of like allowance to like flow through it?

If the first part what you said about 15 minutes goes the MBA, my friends, this is the doctorate that she just gave. You starting a startup and going into it with a coach and a therapist, brilliant. Absolute brilliance. There was so many good things there, Lauren.

We can unpack it. What do you want to double click on?

Probably an Episode Part Two. probably a part two. You and I, after your book launches, I'm officially inviting you right now back for a part two of this, because what I want to go deeper with is once people start reading the book, and once stories start to come back to you, which can already tell that they will just, I'm listening to you, and I've had a lot of conversations like this over the years, Lauren, and this is a unique one. I can't wait to dive into your book myself.

Also, I gotta take some ownership on that, because I didn't get it to you in advance, and that's, and I, I'm a little embarrassed, but also this is like, just taking accountability and ownership, being like, how did I miss getting you the book before we got on?

Anyways, that's a whole other thing. So, I think I know the answer this. I have an inkling of it. But we'll end with this. Is there a particular project or subject matter or event, or something that you're just overjoyed or passionate about right now?

I think something that it's keeping me up at night, that I'm thinking a lot about, is like, not just how do we create the stability, agility dynamic in our organizations and our ventures and our businesses, but how do we create it for ourselves? Because we're gonna always have some of that, like, need for agility and adaptability and like, growth, right? Like, it's sort of like weight training. You only develop muscles by actually adding some weight and some load against the actual mechanism. And I think that sometimes we forget that that is actually intentional, and that getting to our edge and allowing that growth is really key. And then, but also equal to that is enough rest and recovery in order to then be able to go again and finding that dynamic. And so, if the weight training is part of finding that edge, then the sort of recovery and the rest is sort of its counterbalance to create that stability. And so, one of the things I've been talking to with a lot of founders recently is a lot of them are the people that are my friends and just so passionate about, like just being connected to is, how do we find more stability as humans, and how do we make sure that we then bring that to our leadership teams, to our teams, to the cultures that we're building, to the communities and the ecosystems that we participate in? Because I think that that the conscious leadership, that conscious entrepreneurship that is evolving, I mean, I'm trying to find the right answer to this question. It's a big one that you've asked. But I think that that is the thing that I am the most excited about, that we're having more real, raw conversations, and we're really trying to find solutions to the things that are holding us back as people and the organization's profit or nonprofit that we are a part of.

The weight training, load bearing, you know, piece of business, counterbalanced with the rest in recovery. I know I can speak for myself, and I see this with our clients all the time. There is the weight training, there is the load bearing, but there isn't that rest and recovery period, and that will get you every single time. It's gotten me before.

1000 %. It's gotten it's gotten me too. And I have 12 different fitness certifications, right?

You know better.

I know better. And then as an entrepreneur, you know, I think sometimes we tell ourselves, but I can bring myself to a whole new level, a whole new standard. It's like, it can be true in terms of finding a new edge for us, but I don't think we've had enough training or conversation in terms of what does conscious leadership look like? Well, one, you have to embody it in order to model it. You have to like, know your values and live them. But then you also need to figure out what those practices and those principles are, and I think the more years I have on this planet, and the more innovation work that I do, the more I lean into, I started in wellness and fitness on purpose, and then went so deep down the rabbit hole on like startup and innovation, because I do believe the world needs entrepreneurs and innovators to design the future that we all want. And somewhere in the middle of that, we need to bring these pieces together, which is like, how do we make sure that we find that rest in recovery? Because so many people have mental health challenges that come up or burn out, or one of those two things trigger something in terms of an ailment from a well-being standpoint, and that's very real, because we need to make sure we bake in that recovery. But also, when we have something going on, we have to listen to it and figure out, how do I become the person that I need to be in order to be resilient through this? And sometimes it is just taking a step back.

It is so hard to actually do from time to time. Well, that may be part of Episode Three. I don't know it was the whole rest and recovery part.

I know. I think and feel very deeply. So, when you go down a rabbit hole, I'm like, I may have already contemplated it quite deeply, and if not, I'm always happy to be a thought partner or sparring partner, to be like, okay, what might this look like? Let's have that conversation.

Yeah, no, I'm sensing that it you have this uniqueness about you, Lauren, where you recognize the importance of other people in the way that they can help you and assist you and then also make you stronger to then go help and assist other people. There's a thing that I'm sensing from you there, which I at least in my observation, is unique.

Very kind.

Yeah, there's so many places that we could go there. I have a feeling much of our audience is going to want to know more about you and be in contact with you. How do people find you?

So, my LinkedIn is the number one channel that that I put energy into, that we around the book put energy into. And I say we, because any entrepreneur can't do it themselves. And I think it's important to recognize that. So, LinkedIn. Lauren Perkins, you can find me there. I'm a top voice for entrepreneurship, so that's a huge focus, is just trying to share more knowledge about how to do it, how nit to do it, the lessons learned, the failures. I failed plenty. I will continue to fail, but I'll try to turn them into learnings and insights and hopefully continue to surround myself with people who will challenge me if and when I don't.

Awesome. LinkedIn, Lauren Perkins.

And my website's Lauren perkins.io so we've got all kinds of goodies and additional bonuses that support the book. And if somebody had a deeper question, they can either, you know, submit something there or on LinkedIn. I love building community and connecting.

Perfect. Yeah, we can tell, for sure. Well, we're gonna leave it there and again, I’d love to pick up the conversation with you down the road. Lauren, it has been an honor. It's been fun.

So much fun.

Took a took a page and a half worth of notes. Thank you very much.

Well, that's actually fantastic. I'd love to know what you learned and things that were the most valuable. That's always helpful for me well and for your audience.

As part of the wrap of the show is me talking about insights. And so, you'll hear some of those when you listen to this episode. So, Lauren, without further ado, thank you so much. We're gonna wrap here. It has been a pleasure having you on the show and looking forward to when, and if there is a next time that we do this.

I will accept your invite for round two or three.

Two or three, you heard it. You heard it here, audience.

Well, I did start as a journalist, so I have that listening that that people sometimes don't love, because I remember most of what they offer and commit to.

So good, so good. Well, thank you. And until next time.

Until next time.

Well, there audience. There were so many insights that I got there. I'm listening to Lauren Perkins speak, and I'm hearing things like triathlons, startups, Nike, Microsoft, just things in her background, having the awareness and humbleness and confidence at the same time to create yet another startup and right away hire a coach and a therapist; like there's just so many things there. But when I said an MBA in entrepreneurship, I was not kidding there. Having your constraints be your superpower. Boy, that flips things upside down and she has a different way of looking at things, reducing ambiguity as much as possible. So smart. Not only niching, but channel niching. I don't know if you all heard that, and then at the end there, just talking about that weight training and load bearing that we have to do in business, whether it's what direction to go in or what is the challenge of the day to solve, but that difficultness, that load bearing of business that we do to counterbalance that with stability of rest and recovery and human connection and community. There's just so, so many good things there. The fact that you need to embody things in order to be able to model it, just so many good things there. But those were some of my insights. But as we say at every end of every episode of The Insight Interviews, it's not much important what my insights were as the host, but listeners, what were your insights?

Thanks for reading. If you got any value at all from this episode, a little nugget all the way up to some big, huge insight, please do us a solid by subscribing, recommending, rating, and reviewing us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or Google. That stuff matters to us, and it allows us to continue interviewing more awesome people.

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