Erika Martens currently serves as the Chief Financial Officer for FirstTrust Home Loans. Throughout her career, she has held many roles in diverse departments including compliance, operations, underwriting, and technology, and these experiences have given her a unique vantage point when it comes to strategy, decision-making, and data delivery. If asked, she’d tell you that she has made a career out of always being curious and being willing to be the first one to try to figure something out. Erika is a past President of the Oklahoma Mortgage Bankers Association and Board Chair for the Health and Wellness Center, Oklahoma’s largest rural FQHC. She holds an MBA from Oklahoma State University and is an active member of several other communities and faith-based organizations. She was named a NEXT Powerhouse Award Winner for 2021. She lives in Oklahoma with her husband, an accomplished police lieutenant, and her son, a bright and active fourth grader.
In this episode, Steve and Erika discuss:
- What makes a good leader?
- Having a learner’s attitude
- Fostering curiosity
- How stress affects intentionality
Key Takeaways:
- A good leader is one who shows confidence in their team, and is never about themselves but always about other people.
- Learning to be more curious starts with deciding that you want to be more curious. Having a learner’s attitude will bring you not only a lot of knowledge and experience but also a lot of opportunities.
- Start small, and don’t be afraid. Pursue the “why” and give your intention to it. Help others be curious, seek out people who want to know more about the things that you already know very well.
- Intention takes energy and so does stress. Therefore, stress and anxiety in life have the potential to rob from the intentionality in what you do.
“You can never stop learning. Continuing to learn and be curious - that's what gave me those opportunities. And I want those opportunities to keep coming.”
- Erika Martens
Connect with Erika Martens
Connect with Steve and Jason:
- Website: Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking
- Email: grow@rewireinc.com
Listen to the podcast here:
Erika Martens- It Costs Nothing to Ask
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Insight Interviews. This is your host, Steve Scanlon. Today, I have a guest from the very center of our country, I don't know if it's the exact center, but it's pretty darn close to the center of the country, and so with no further ado, you're gonna be able to read about her and your show notes, I would like to introduce the Insight interview world to Erika Martens. Erika, say hi to our podcast world.
Well, hello, Insight Interview listeners. I'm also a listener, and so, I'm super excited to share with you today.
See, isn’t that awesome? I already love your voice. I think it's great. Sometimes, you know, we get guests and everyone has some kind of interesting voice, but I've really enjoyed talking to you, I enjoyed meeting you, and I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. So, let's get going. Ready?
Yes, I'm ready.
Well, if you're a listener, and this isn't really fair, because you've probably heard this, I do like to start these things out. And in coaching Erica, we call this a toward state, we're moving towards something not away from things, but in a toward State way, we always like to think of something positive. And so, I can't think of anything more positive to think about gratitude, and just for things that we have in life. So, what I'd like to ask you is in your life in your world, where you are, what are you grateful for?
Okay, so that's a good question. And you're right, you know, you do ask your guests that sometimes, but you mix it up. So, I didn't know that one was coming. So, you know, you want to say everything, right? Everybody, you know, go through the list, and you know, there's 1000 things, but I really think that the main thing that ties all of those together for me, is that I'm grateful for all the opportunities that I've had over the years. There's been a lot of places, people and pathways really, that I've had access to. And of course, I had to do the work, but having the opportunity professionally and personally, and then being brave enough, you know, to walk those paths or to take those opportunities, that's really one of the things that I'm very grateful for. Opportunity.
That's fantastic. Okay, so you mentioned people and pathways, I see a good book in you called people in pathways, what do you think about?
I don't know, I kind of like it.
Give me off the top of your head, when you think about the people in your life that helped you present opportunities, I loved how you said, yeah, I had to take advantage of it, who's someone that comes right to your mind when you think about people who have been part of this opportunity that you've had?
Oh, gosh, now that's gonna be hard to just pick one. But I will say that, you know, early on, I mean, like, way early on, there was a manager at the bank that I worked at, and she always let me do whatever I asked. Like, I would say, hey, will you show me how to do that, or can I help you with that? And you know, she never really like said, no, you're too young, or that's really not your department. She was always like, sure, let me show you. And let me tell you more about how and why, right? Because I was continue to be a big why person, but I think that's kind of where that started, and really her allowing me to learn new things and try out other departments is what got me into mortgage in the first place.
That's fantastic. I always like it when we can identify one person like that, because you just kind of listed out a quality and a characteristic that a good leader has. I mean, right?
Yup.
What would you call that? I mean, she it's not necessarily permissive. Like that sounds a little weird, but like, what was that quality in her?
Well, I would say it was confidence but not confidence in her, right? It was her confidence in me. And, and there was this, I don't know if I have a good word for it, but she just had this attitude. Like, it wasn't her stuff to be gathered up and held really close and not shared with anyone, but instead it was all the things she had that she wanted to share. I don't know. I'm sure there's a fabulous word and it's just not coming to me at the moment.
I don't know about fabulous, and I don't know that we need to spend time coming up with the word. I've got one that I can say it yet, but I need you to validate it like yes, that's what we're talking about. Ready?
Yes.
A spirit of abundance.
Yes, perfect. That absolutely describes it.
So again, in our Insight Interviews, like we're always looking for ways to have insights, and so, I want to sit back in my chair and go as a result of that story, do I have a spirit of abundance? Where do I hold on to things? Where can I continue to let go? So that's kind of what we're doing here and I'm really grateful for that. Is that something that you feel like you've modeled out into your world?
I've certainly tried and been much more conscious, you know, the older I've gotten. And maybe not like, actual age, I don't mean necessarily so much, it's like, my age and experience working in the business world and, you know, having different roles at different levels. Entry, mid-level management, upper management, I've gotten a lot better at it. And you know, one of the things I like to always do with my people, you know, talking about the why, I never really want to be seen as someone who, you know, is hoarding all the information, because I mean, pretty much everything is information these days, right? And so, when you spend a lot of time in an industry, whether it's mortgage or whatever, you end up accumulating a lot of knowledge. And, you know, sometimes it's first-hand knowledge, or like that kind of knowledge that you learn when you screw something up really bad, and you have to fix it, so now, you know-
That's sort of the best kind of knowledge.
Yes, right. Right.
"But the idea would be that, you know, the people around me, they don't have to make that same mistake and deal with that same fallout, because I did it once. And even though it wasn't, you know, very glamorous to have to clean up the mess, I now know what to do to not have a mess later. And if I don't share that with my people, then they're prone to make the same mess. And you know, that would be on me, really, because I should be sharing with him what I know best practices, taking those opportunities, and really doing it in a way that doesn't say, oh, look at me, look at what I know. Instead that says, look at what I learned, and I want you to know what to do so that you can tell someone else. And I want you to tell me what you've learned, because regardless of what kind of work they're doing, inevitably they've had a different experience for something else, and they can contribute as well."
Well, see, this is why we can't do these things for very long, because like I already have 50 questions for you just based on that stuff. It just sounds to me like that, that's such a characteristic of servant leadership. It's not about you, Erika, right? It's you trying to be about other people and helping them grow. And I wrote down you said this never hoard information. That's another book that you're gonna write. You got people in pathways and never hoard information. But like you're giving it away, so that they can give it away. Do I have that right?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's the only way that they can grow and then others can grow. I mean, it's, you know, it's a ripple effect.
For sure. Yeah. I think of the movie, Pay it Forward. You're paying forward. That's really, really cool. Well, again, I got a whole bunch of questions before we do, that would love for you to take a few seconds. If you've been a listener, which I know you have, I can certainly read your bio, and what you do in this work and where you've come from, but I always find it's more interesting when and a little bit and, you know, difficult for other people, but just give us your story. Give us a thumbnail of how'd you get here? What do you do? Where are you with it? What are some of the journeys that you took, again, if you could synthesize that, so we you know, how would you do that? Tell us your story.
Okay, great. Yeah, I'll try to keep it brief. So really, my professional story, as I mentioned before, you know, I worked at a small bank and started there really in high school, just doing teller work. And over time, I would say, hey, can I help do this or but you got go on? Or that manager would say, can you do this? So, I ended up in mortgage, like shipping a package here, or they say, can you type this up? And yes, we were using a typewriter, or fax these conditions to underwriting? Yes, it was a fax machine. So, I kind of got my foot in just how things work slowly. Eventually, I had the opportunity to do processing and closing. And really another person, another lady, told me you know, you can underwrite loans and I'm like, what? I can do that? And well, you know what, yeah, I can, so again, I had the opportunity there to learn how to underwrite get lots of all the fun certifications for that small place. So, you wear a lot of hats. I did some work in our loan operating system. So, you know, we merged we had to combine systems and then everything happens right? They change things all the time, right? We had changes to herd and the GFP and then we had tread and all the iterations of tread and so I got a really, really good amount of exposure to systems as well. Of course, while all that's going on, I'm going to college finishing a degree have an MBA, so I had some technical and academic training to in you know, the finger points of maybe finance in accounting. Anyway, trying to speed this up here.
Oh, don't I'm loving it.
So, in that role, you know, I pretty much did all the things in the manufacturing process for mortgage short of, you know, you know, one of the most important parts, just getting the customer in the door, the origination side. That was really, you know, not where my gifting was, but we had some talented folks who did that, so I just supported them. But about four years ago, and I met Glenn with First Trust, and his company was growing, and you know, he was kind of to that point where you need someone to take on certain departments wholeheartedly, you know, not just kind of spread it out. And so, my role here was to take care of their systems, right? LOS, all of those things that go with that, and then also the finance department. And, you know, I felt like that was a really great opportunity for me. Number one, to grow even more to get some real hands on experience in the more technical side of finance, but also, you know, I felt really good about bringing all that operational experience to the financial side of the business. And so then about a year ago, he promoted me to the CFO here, and so I kind of like to think is probably not true, but you know how that is, I like to think I'm a little bit of an unusual type of a CFO, so I don't really think I have had the normal path to the position. But I love that I do have that understanding of operations, and that I can contribute a different perspective sometimes. And that you know, that's valued here. I also really appreciate that. Plus, oh, my goodness, there's so much to learn even still, and so, I like that the job and the industry continues to challenge me.
Holy moly, that is so awesome. I think one of the things that you had told me when we first spoke, and I know that you mentioned some of these things, but you've used the word learning, learning. I get the sense that just I mean, even the way that you were back being a teller, I want to learn that I want to learn that like, like, that might have been intuitive to you, but I'm just kind of curious is being a lifelong learner, is that is that one of the ways that you see yourself?
Oh, yeah. 100%. I mean, I feel like you know, sometimes, like you just read would read my bio be like, oh, she's the CFO, she must be an expert. Well, I mean, yeah, no, not at all. I mean, things change, and there's so much going on. Of course I know a lot about certain things, but you can never stop learning. And I really feel like, you know, when you get to a point where you're done with that, I mean, I don't even know how you can lead anymore, because you have to be on top of things. And then the other thing for me too, is that I joke to myself that continuing to learn and be curious, you know, we talked about those opportunities, that's what gave me those opportunities. And, you know, I want those opportunities to keep coming, whether that's serving in, you know, volunteer positions, or sharing with others, like through this podcast, which I was so excited you asked me to join you on. And so, you know, just constantly being curious and wanting to know the why has just really been something that's been really important to me.
You remember that part where I told you I wasn't going to put you on the spot?
Oh, yeah.
I had a question that came from what you were just talking about. And I was like, I wonder if that puts us back. Can we go for and if it does, you can just go past like, go to the next question or whatever?
Sure.
You have used this word, curiosity. And it seems Erika like it's something that's in you. I don't know. Maybe if I go back and look at five-year-old Erika, maybe you know, your parents would say you are always curious. And like the curiosity is such an amazing trait, and I think it's kind of the way that I'm just reflecting it back to you from a leadership perspective, if you lose that I heard you say like, I don't even how you're a leader anymore. Like, right?-3.png?width=340&height=260&name=Untitled%20design%20(11)-3.png)
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so here's my question.
Okay.
You're now called upon to teach a college course, on curiosity.
Okay.
The reason I'm asking is because it's really cool that you're like that, and I could look at this and go, that's just amazing. I can kind of see the path and why care essence helped you. How do we help others who maybe don't have that same intuitive sense of curiosity, foster it? In other words, how do we teach it? How would you teach it? What would you how do you help others be curious?
So, I'm going to take a shot here. I would say one of the main I think ways that people can learn to be more curious, starts actually with deciding that they want to be curious, right? Putting some intention behind pursuing the why on something. So it might be something small, right? Like a simple task you do at work, and then you're like, you know, I really don't know why I click that box every time or why I need to have this document or, you know, whatever the item is. And you know, when you start really small, I feel like you could get a lot of like positive reinforcement or wins because you begin to learn. And then the person next to you is having a problem, often the source of troubleshooting, the first thing you need to do is know why you're doing it, so then you can know why it doesn't work. So, I would definitely say at least start with recognizing that you need you need to be intentional with being curious about things, but also, just not being afraid like to ask a question, or to say, hey, I don't actually know how to do that. Or I hear you talking about this topic, and I'm nodding, and I'm thinking, oh, that's interesting, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you explain that a little more? And you'll find people love to do that. But the person who knows (most of the time) really does want you to ask up for more information or wants you to ask why, and they want to share. So, I mean, it's kind of a small start, but that's probably where I would start.
I think that's great. And I also like, start small. Why do I click that button? But that's not asking some big existential question about life, which is good, we can do that, but like, maybe start small. What else? What else? What else would you teach? Again, we're in a class, and Erika Martens is teaching us how to curate and foster curiosity. What else is part of the curriculum? I got, start small, don't be afraid, pursue the why given tension to it. Right? So, I got some things. What else?
Oh, gosh, now I feel a little on the spot. What else could I say about that? Maybe also, like seek to help other people be curious around you. So, kind of one of those things where, if you're looking for it, then you'll find it. So, when you know a little more about something, because everybody has a thing that they are really good at, or that they understand very well, and you might not think it's a big deal, but I promise you, everybody has something, and so maybe the goal there also would be to seek out people who want to know more about things that you know really well, or that you interact with all the time, and, you know, you see that they don't seem to understand and you just want to share with them what you know. I think that also, like as a you're a student, you're also a teacher.
So yeah, I love that. And I think it's something that I read somewhere along the road that it might have even been on LinkedIn or something that you said about, and you even mentioned this upfront, Erika, about the that one person, your bank leader that helps you see things, it seems like seeing the potential in other people, right? Like, being able to see that in them. Do I have that right?
Yeah. No. 100%?
I mean, seeking help of others, you know, that are already curious, but I don't know, maybe just seeing the potential in other people.
Yeah, I think that that's also really important when we go back to talking about, you know, kind of changing lanes a little bit, but the, you know, the opportunity piece. I got a lot of opportunities, because people saw potential in me and they said so or they kind of, you know, nudged me in the direction. And so, I certainly feel like that's something that I need to do. A friend of mine, she always talks about, she'll say, oh, I love having a front row seat in your cheering section. And just the imagery that I get whenever I hear her say that, and I will just full disclosure, I've totally said that to other people, too, because I love what it conveys. And we need, frankly, we need more of that in the industry and business and in the entire world.
Yeah. If the Insight Interviews is to draw out insights, again, I've already got you writing three books.
Man, I'm on a roll.
Yeah, you know, The Book of people and pathways, and I will never hoard information. I've got other ones, but I like front row seat.
Oh, that's good.
Front row seat to other people's successes, right? Do I have that right?
Yep, absolutely.
All right. Well, that's three books. You’re gonna have to quit your job.
I'm gonna do that.
Well, you gotta call Glenn now and say, sorry, you lost your CFO because she's becoming an author of books. No, I love how you said the world needs more of that. Okay, so we'll move on past the- I do ask that just so you know, because I love what you said about curiosity. I find that being curious is what I would call a soft skill, right? Like, yeah, it's sometimes easier as an employer and maybe you see this in people, to find people that already have it, then to think you're gonna bring them on and teach them that. And so, but at the same time, I think you and I both have the hope, because that sounds like the kind of person you are, that we couldn't teach that. And so being intentional pursuing the why starting small, I think these were really, really good thing. So, anyone listening, like, I'm hoping that, are you asking yourself, are you having an insight of Whoa, can I become even more curious? Because I'm listening to Erika, and it sounds like your life has taken some amazing turns because you did pursue the why. You did ask some questions and you were very curious.
Yeah, no, I would agree. And I would second the encouragement. You got nothing to lose. And, you know, it costs nothing to ask questions. And, you know, you also can develop some really great relationships along the way, when you start talking to people.
Yeah, that's great. Well, speaking about that, as you've gone through these changes, and you've climbed up the ladder, and the people around you, like Glenn, in your organization have seen, you know, the power of what you can do, and you continue to get elevated, you've had some stepping stones along the way, and you've worked with a lot of people, I just would love to learn, what have you learned about people in this industry, generally speaking? And I have another question about that. But just, what are some of the characteristics? What have you learned about people in this industry, in terms of people that have been successful in all walks? What have you seen?
Okay, so I've definitely seen that all of these people, you know, the whole, you mentioned servant leadership before, but they have that, I guess, a humble spirit. I mean, that they don't, you know, they're, I guess there are the occasions of people who aren't interested in other folks are more self-serving, but for the most part, they just want to see other people succeed. And they want they want to help. I mean, again, back to curiosity, and sharing, like everyone wants to share, at least what I've seen in this industry, they want to share with others, they want to bring others up and bring others along.
"And I would really say another thing I've noticed is that everybody I've encountered, everyone really wants to do what's right. They want to do the right thing, the best thing. Now sometimes when you get into day to day, and it gets all tangled up, you got to make a real effort, you know, to see the forest through the trees sort of a thing, but I think, you know, everyone in mortgaging industry. Granted and I know, in the mainstream media or on the news, sometimes the headlines, especially in the past haven't been super friendly to us, but I always feel like those are all the exceptions. Those are not the rules. We love helping people and we love helping one another. And so, I think that that just serving and helpfulness, it's really a hallmark of a good leader and is a good hallmark of our industry, too."
That was another insight I just had, you know, we can all get caught up in that. We can read the headlines. We have known, you know, people and places in the past. If I'm hearing you right, it is not the majority of people.
Oh, no.
The majority people want to help, they want to serve, they want to see the world in a better place. Is that how you see it?
Yes, that's exactly how I see it.
That goes back to assuming the good in people.
Yes.
Talk to me about that.
Okay, so one thing I used to tell my teams a lot, especially when I was managing, kind of like in the mid-level, I was managing people a little closer to the front lines, and this is not an original idea, really, I read about it in depth in a very good book, but the basic idea is really that you shouldn't really go into a situation or a conversation, assuming that the other person intends to do you harm, or like, their whole purpose is to make your work more difficult. And I don't just mean like at work, like try this one with your spouse or your kid or maybe a difficult family member, and you'll find that it changes the whole dynamic, but really, you know, they didn't wake up this morning and decide, Oh, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna use underwriting because I did a lot of that process or didn't turn the file in with one of the pages scanned upside down, because she knew that that's your pet peeve, and she wanted to watch you lose your mind. She just got in a hurry because she had another pressing deadline, or maybe she was up all night, you know, sick or had to get a kid to a ballgame, and they got home late. I mean, there's 1000 things that could have happened. And when we stop thinking that everything is about me and you know, and in this way, it's like, they're just doing this to me and instead we assume they meant well, I mean, your whole perspective changes. You don't get upset, you don't, perhaps, fire back how could you or send that file in like that, or maybe next time you'll do better. It's not easy all the time to take a breather and say, you know, they didn't mean to do that to me, but when you do it, I feel like it just makes your life way, way more productive and quieter. You don't have all of that drama and negativity because you give people the benefit of the doubt. Now, are there people who do things just to get at you? Maybe there you have some of those. But I, again, back to the exceptions and not the rules.-2.png?width=340&height=260&name=Untitled%20design%20(10)-2.png)
You know, it's so funny, I was thinking, you know, this is why the television we often watch this, like, lately, our country seems to be watching shows about murderers, and you know, like, it's the weirdest thing like why we're so attracted to negativity like that. It seems to me like you're super attracted to positivity.
Yeah.
But even as you were mentioning that people, like if you're the underwriter, and let's say for a second, and then we'll come back to the positive side, but for one second, if you were the kind of person that assumed the worst, and assumed that people were out to get you, they did it on purpose, if you're walking around making assumptions like that, and again, we're gonna get to the other side, Erika, I promise. What is it that happened? What do you think, as you've observed that, if you've observed it, how do you live? Like, what happens to people that assumed the worst? What do you think?
Well, I mean, I think you, you find what you're looking for, right? And you're it's going to, you're going to always see that and everything, you're going to see the negative thing, you're going to look for negative, and then what you put out in the world is going to be negative. And I mean, honestly, you're going to turn around and possibly do something negative or back at someone else, and not even realize that you've done that, because all you've been feeding yourself is the negativity, you know, everyone is against me, and you can't you can't look at things like that. I mean, you just can't.
Yeah, all right. That was enough of that. Let's talk about the positive side, which you already kind of mentioned a few things. And I really want to get to one thing in particular, I've noticed this, and I don't know what you think, but specifically with some of the closest people to us, like our spouse, or our kids, or your direct boss, or someone that you work really closely with, they're a really good friend. I have noticed for some weird reason, and again, I'm gonna just say this, but sometimes it's with my own spouse, my wife, like, what is it about close people to us where we can slip into thinking they did that intentionally to me? And then conversely, when I have tried to make the intention of reminding myself this person's for me, that has been so much more fruitful, but I've just noticed that some of the closest people to us, I can have this weird tendency to slip into, why'd they do that to me?
Yeah, I think well, I mean, I do too. I think that I think that's common. And I mean, the degrees in business and finance, not necessarily psychology, but I do think that people in your life, you're so comfortable with them, you let all your guards down. You know, you really probably even when there are ways to have healthy boundaries, sometimes you probably don't enforce those like you should, and so you fee like they know, they should know that that drives you nuts. Right? And so, they did it because they know it drives you nuts, when in fact, no, they did it because they were in a hurry. They, they didn't really know it drives you nuts, you just thought they knew. I mean, there's 1000, you know, reasons that have nothing to do with you. But I think we do that with the people we're closest with because of that familiarity that we have. And also, because we're around them the most, they truly have the most opportunities to drive us nuts, right? Because we're married to them or, you know, they're our kiddos, and they live in our house.
Or even in business, right?
Yes.
There is our kids and our spouse, and I don't think that that knows a boundary like that, but I'm wondering what would happen in this industry, if people in operations woke up and thought you know, those salespeople, they are for me? They hope I do good. And conversely, I wonder what would it look like if salespeople woke up every day and reminded themselves that closers and processors and CFOs and underwriters and post-closers, they're for me?
Right. Like, we're all, you know, working the pedals on the same bicycle. And, you know, and someone starts to put on the brakes, and someone else was trying to go forward, like, that's not going to work. And I think it would be great, I mean, I will just say, just because of the stresses of life, we get a little undisciplined with our own. So, like that whole assuming good motives part, right? If I'm going to do that for others, I also have to check my own motives and make sure that they're also good. And, you know, sometimes that sort of self-reflection is not always fun, but necessary. And so, you have to stay on top of that, too.
Well, it's not that I don't, you know, we could do a whole other podcast on the stress thing, just so you know, Erick, and you know that because my brain will do a whole thing on that one. You have mentioned, I really go back to this word intention, right? Like if we're going to assume the best or if we're going to practice curiosity, we have to intend that. Now it sounds like I don't know, just the way you are in life, I think you still have to intended to I think you just listening to you, I think you have some of that stuff kind of naturally. But even you have to intend it, right?
Yes, absolutely.
So, intention takes energy, and it takes focus. When we're stressed, stress itself takes even more energy. So, it's not that I don't like stress or agree that it's there or whatever, I just like, this is one instance, where the stress and anxiety of life could rob from the intentionality of some of the stuff that you're talking about.
Yep, for sure. And that's another reason I think, why you have to, not to use the word over and over again, you still have to be so intentional, right? When you feel your blood pressure rising, or you know, stress level or your anxiety about a thing, like, you have to check that, and everybody's got right their own ways that they do that. Take a deep breath, get up, walk around, call a good friend, watch a funny meme, I mean, I don't know, whatever, whatever your thing is, but you can't not prepare either for that. I think that's the other thing too. I’m kind of a preparation nerd a little bit. Agendas, that sort of stuff.
So, it's a little bit of a catch 22, right? If we were to do those things and could practice more intentionality, then we would probably see the world more positively and ironically, be less stressed.
There you go.
And the lack of stress. So what's the term? There’s a virtuous circle versus the vicious cycle?
Yeah I like it
If we become stressed, then it's much more difficult to practice that level of intentionality when we don't practice the intentionality of curiosity, of serving others of being in that front row, ironically, that leads to the kind of situations that, guess what? Create more stress.
Right.
So that that would be the vicious cycle of it that I think you and I are promoting the virtuous circle, but, you know, we would have to have a whole podcast on do we start with intention, do we start with observing stress? You know, that's a whole other podcast, right?
That's chicken and egg thing, right?
That's right. Well, either way, wherever you're gonna start, start somewhere with intentionality.
That's right. Just start.
And start small. And we got that from you, too. All right. Well, check this out. Yes, we're done.
No way.
Yeah. Like, I mean, that's a very poor ending, like, wait a minute, hang on a second. Before we go, was there something as you came into this, was there something you were hoping I'd ask you that I didn't?
Oh, my goodness, I was so worried that you were going to ask me something crazy that I don't know that there is anything. I know, right? This is the worst way to end it now, Steve. No, I have nothing.
So, wait a minute, let me make sure I get this. You assumed the worst and thought this guy's gonna really just stick it to me?
Yes, I did not even take my own advice. And it's out there in the exact same podcast where I gave the advice. So yeah.
I can't think of a better way to end it. So, like, if we end now, you’re like, well, she actually didn't do that, and then we can get back to our virtuous circle.
That’s right.
I am super grateful being the front row seat for other people, starting small, this idea of intentionality that you spoke about, and everything that you gave us with the idea of really fostering curiosity, Erika. Gold. And again, you've heard me do this, but it isn't really about your gold. What we're trying to do with this podcast is really, maybe as you're listening to it, you're going well, there's some insights that I have about my own leadership as a result of hearing what Erika said, and so I'm just super grateful for you.
Well, thank you, Steve. Thank you.
Yeah, I'm grateful that there's even people like you out there. I have no doubt, and I hope that your organization continues to give you greater and greater opportunities, because I, you know, Erika Marten's for President. How about that?
Well, I don't know about that. But yeah.
Well, I'm a fan and grateful for all you do and thankful for you being on the show.
Well, thank you, Steve. Thank you so much.
Well, thank you guys. You all have a great one. Again, remember that it isn't about the insights that we have, it's about your insights. And we'll see you next time here on the Insight Interviews. Have a good day.
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