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Emma Donovan is a seasoned entrepreneur with 15+ years of experience in brand strategy and professional profiling. As co-founder of Dapper, she excels in creating innovative products and collaborating with brilliant minds. Emma’s superpower lies in injecting enthusiasm and vibrancy into any situation. Currently, Emma’s focus is on sustainable ways to approach personal brand development for entrepreneurs and leadership teams, in a way that’s authentic and creates space to build their brands with intention.

 

In this episode, Jason and Emma discuss:

  • Evolving personal branding through cultural experiences
  • Overcoming fear of self-promotion with a learning mindset
  • Building confidence and tackling imposter syndrome
  • Managing work-life balance with energy and "white space"
  • Energizing in-person connections for authenticity and growth

Key Takeaways:

  • Personal branding evolves continuously, adapting to new experiences and shifting goals, allowing individuals to stay relevant and authentic over time.
  • Building authentic relationships across cultures and time zones fosters personal growth and aligns with core values, creating deeper connections in both personal and professional contexts.
  • Tackling imposter syndrome is essential for empowering individuals to confidently share their stories, which helps them shine and excel without self-doubt holding them back.
  • Injecting fun and balance into work through energy management, creating "white space" in calendars, and intentional scheduling helps prevent burnout and fosters a more fulfilling, sustainable work-life experience.
  • A structured, introspective process helps individuals reshape their personal narratives, embrace their freedom of choice, and build authentic, purpose-driven brands.

“My personal values are freedom, vitality, and connection. And I think my personality and what I value, like authentic human connection, is everything. So, something we are working on is launching retreats because I feel immersing people in this way of thinking, being, and building a strong, authentic brand takes what we offer to a whole new level. When I talk about this, my energy rises because it’s all about future opportunities—ways to evolve what we do to serve our clients better and build a bigger community of empowered, confident people who embrace finding joy.”

 - Emma Donovan

Connect with Emma Donovan:

 

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Listen to the podcast here:

 


Emma Donovan- Finding Joy in the Ordinary

Hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Insight Interviews. This is your host, Steve Scanlon, today, and I have a very, very special guest from a very cool part of the world. I think that's one just absolutely amazing thing about our world, is our ability to connect wherever we are, literally all over the globe. And so today you're going to get to spend some time listening to and thinking about your brand, how you promote yourself, how you might promote your work, from an expert in South Africa. I was going to do my best South African accent, but that would be terrible. So, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to introduce to you, the Insight Interview world, Emma Donovan. Emma, say hello to our little podcast world.

Hi Steve, and hello to everyone listening. It’s really great to be here today.

Yeah, well, we are just excited to have you. And even before the show started, I know it's going to a lot of fun, and frankly, I'm looking forward to taking away some stuff about branding. I think so many people out there, Emma, this is such a big deal, and it's not just a one-time thing. We have to brand and rebrand and think about who we are and how we are and how we show up vocationally and maybe personally, and so, really looking forward to what you're going to bring to the table.

Thank you. And I think that's such a great point to start with how your brand evolves over time. It's not something that's static.

Yeah, great. Well, we will start there. We do have we like to start here. I'm going to start one other place, and then we're going to come back to the dynamic nature of branding, and we can kick off there, maybe. but the first question I want to ask you is where you are today in South Africa, this afternoon for you, what are you grateful for?

I love that you always start with this question. I did have a heads up from previous episodes and interviews and what stood out for me from a call I had with a client in Australia this morning. So again, completely different time zone. It's just part of our approach at Dapper is to create space and to cultivate joy, and even though it was seven in the morning for me and last meeting of the day for my client, we just had such fun, and we really sort of delved into important conversation, but did it in a way that was liked and engaging and felt like there was such authentic connection. So, I think I'm just grateful to build relationships like that with clients who are scattered around the world.

Wow, that's amazing. Thank you for that. That’s so cool. I can't help but escape the idea that isn't it a little odd, like you're talking to this crazy guy in Oregon, and I'm talking to you in South Africa. I don't know, maybe people are going, yes, Steve, we had that technology a long time ago, and I still think it's very cool.

Yes, it is.

All right. Well, Emma, I want to give you the floor. I know we're gonna dive into some branding stuff, and like I said, I can't wait to take notes myself personally. I know our gang's gonna get a lot out of it. I've got some great questions for you. It would be helpful, and I can read your bio and talk about you and who you are, but it's helpful if you do that. Like, tell us who we're listening to, and help us understand a little bit about who you are and where you've come from and why you are.

Absolutely, I'd love to do that. Think my story started in Zimbabwe, where I spent most of my childhood. That sort of idea of branding yourself just never crossed my mind. I think that probably happened in the year I spent traveling after my degree in Cape Town in South Africa. Just getting to experience different cultures and places. We touched on a conversation around Italy before we started the recording, and just being exposed to so much and so many different ways of being and viewing the world, I think really sparked my curiosity around it. I spent about a decade in marketing until the sort of pandemic hit, and I really took a long, hard look at what I was doing and what brought me joy, and just felt that my career path wasn't aligned to what mattered to me, and that's where the idea for DAPA really stemmed from. And I sort of took the leap into having a startup again. And I won't say I haven't looked back, because, of course, there's been a couple of stumbling blocks and hurdles along the way, but I really wouldn't change it. I think it's all around, as I said, creating space for that authentic connection and just really working with people and empowering them, rather than doing it for them. So, I think the big difference to me in marketing, is that kind of idea of promoting and selling something, whereas with a brand like, what is the story you want to share with the world? And having to, I suppose, go on that journey myself, so that what I was encouraging people around me to do, I'd actually walk the walk. So, I think that's been a really interesting journey for me personally as well.

Wonderful. If you don't want to say that's fine, as part of your own story, I think what just stuck out for me is it isn't like you didn't have stumbling blocks. How did those stumbling blocks help you be what you are today?

Very happy to share. I think the one around my own brand was that I was always quite happy being the one behind the camera, rather than in front of it. And I realized I was encouraging my clients to do keynote talks and podcast interviews and write thought leadership content and, you know, just sort of be on a platform maybe one step further than they currently were, as a way to share their story, and I realized I needed to step up and do the same. And what's been incredible is how much I've actually enjoyed that challenge, realizing that I got all the tools I need. It was just around building confidence, having the right mentors, sort of doing my homework and finding my feet, but also sometimes just that, jumping in and learning as you go. So, the done is better than perfect approach, but say, not a stumbling block, but a maybe a scary part of the business. And a stumbling block might just be again, personality related, but I'm ambitious and I'm impatient, so going from having a more established business to a startup, again, I love that it's agile, but we only four years in, so there's still so much to do and learn and grow, which is wonderful. But some days think I just need to remind myself to appreciate how far we've got rather what I would still like to do. I've always got a million new products and ideas floating around my head, and it's just convincing myself to do one thing at a time.

I love it, ambitious and impatient. Part of the story. That's fantastic. I do want to come back to the comment that we made up front about the dynamic nature of things. I don't want to let that go too far. You did say something just now, though, that just kind of struck me, because you mentioned your own stumbling block, which I think is just so great that you do that and thank you for that. As you've heard other people's stories, and you help other people tell their stories, what are some of the key stumbling blocks you find in in helping other people tell their stories?

There's something that surprised me when I first started Dapper was how many brilliant people have imposter syndrome, and that it's something we need to work through before we even look at what is their story and how to share it. And I think many entrepreneurs share my trait of impatience, and they want to network and see results and generate leads, or whatever their kind of end goal is, and we take them right back to the beginning and go what matters to you, what brings you joy, what do you stand for? Why do you want to share your story? How can we do it in a way that's authentic? So those sorts of questions require a lot of reflection, a lot of sorts of vulnerability, and I think that can be challenging with a client. So, in terms of the stumbling block from my side, it's more about, how do I create a safe space, and how do I make sure they're going to enjoy this process? I never want it to be feel like a grudge purchase or homework. I want people to really lean in and be excited about it, because it can be such a fun process to embark on.

Imposter syndrome. Interesting. From your chair, if I if I heard what you just said, and you were very kind about it, but there's a lot of people who have a lot of amazing talents and gifts, and they're there, you're implying that by saying imposter syndrome, they don't know it's there, or they don't maybe see it as valuable, and so by asking those questions, are you trying to illuminate the value that's there for people? Because, if not, it's just the light that's hidden. Am I saying that right?

Yeah, I think that's a great way to say it. And I think another sort of side of the same conversation is around people who maybe do know their value, but they don't know how to share it because they want to say it with humility and are worried that they might seem arrogant, or they want to learn how to craft the message in a way that will land with their audience. So sometimes, as you said, a case of not really knowing or appreciating their value, and for others that it's more around packaging that in a way that that makes sense. And sometimes it really is just needing that confidence boost.

Now we're getting into a little sociology of which I have no expertise, which I think is kind of funny, but whatever. The way you just said that, like, do you think the world, let's just call it the business world, and the people that work with us and the people that work with you, is there a bigger problem with arrogance or a lack of confidence?

So, I wouldn't say a lack of confidence. I think people might be perceived as arrogant, but it may be bravado. It might actually be a front for being shy or out of their depth or not feeling safe in environment. I think maybe that's the way I want to see it. Not that I want people to lack confidence, but it's that whole trusting people are doing their best, or that they are wanting to put their best foot forward, and that might come across as a bit arrogant or rash. Of course, there are people who are arrogant, but I would say the majority of people, it's just finding their groove. Finding how they can be comfortable in their own skin is often the challenge, and it’s interesting how many people struggle with that and maybe wear a mask, so they may come across as confident, but once you start peeling back a little layer or two, it is often they are not quite sure how they want to show up.


Yeah, I'm so grateful you said that, and I’ve just taken a bunch of notes, like I do have some people I just don't want to be arrogant. And I've scratched my own head going, I get that we don't want to be arrogant, but we're focusing on the wrong problem. Yes, if we all of a sudden had too much hubris, that's bad, and there are some people, again, narcissism and all of that, but in the great scheme of things, a lack of confidence from my chair seems to be a much bigger problem. So, the questions that you're drawing out through Dapper in your work are not helping people grow to arrogance, they're helping people effectively shine their own light, which they're worried about doing or scared of doing, or again, that lack of confidence. Do I have that right?

Absolutely. Yeah.

Wow. Wow. That's great. You know, one of the things when I was reading about you, and I'd love it if you talked about it a little bit, is you inject fun into when you're helping people tell their story. It seems, I don't know, maybe that's just what I wanted to read, but it felt to me like you were really helping people be lighter and inject fun into stuff. Did I read that wrong or is that almost like a value of yours?

It absolutely is. I think it comes from this idea that I want to build a life I don't need a holiday from and not because I don't love holidays. I probably take more than the average person because I just love exploring and being in new places and having time to recharge, but it's just that sense of, how do you make the most of every day, and how do you enjoy the little things? So that includes your workday and sharing your story. And I feel that a lot of people I work with have really a lot of responsibility, serious jobs, a lot of pressure, and so I come in and go, this work is important, but not urgent. So, let's carve out space to do it well and to have fun doing it. So, when we work with clients who are in the same place as us or part of our team, we love to get them out onto the mountain for a walk or take them to a beautiful new restaurant or coffee shop they haven't been to, and it's just, again, that change in environment. And we found ways to create that with clients across Zoom as well. So fun icebreakers or just, you know, ways to make it as interactive as possible. So yeah, very much a kind of core of my personal approach to life, but also what we do at Dapper.

I love it. I wrote down the question for me, am I building a life that I don't need to take a holiday from? And then you quickly added, and you love holidays. We say vacation here in the States. So, I think a lot of people will get it, but I think that's fantastic. At least here in the States, and I tell people, you know, probably all over the world, by now, there's an entire restaurant chain dedicated to a day of the week, because we get to no longer have to do this thing, right? Thank God it's Friday, right? TGIF. And it's just fascinating to me, and maybe even a little maddening, and that's why I am really eager to talk to you. I don't know if there's a process for that, or is it just how you ask your questions? Would you mind sharing with us some of the thoughts or ideas? Again, we're trying to help people build a life and a business, perhaps, that they don't need a holiday from. What are some of the mechanics of that? How do you do that?

So really simple exercise, which anyone listening could literally do right now is to take a piece of paper, I mean, I love doing it old school on paper, but of course, you could do it on a note on your phone or your laptop, and just have a line down the middle and put what energizes me on one side and what drain me on the other, and list every single thing in your day for a week or two. And I think we people are often surprised by what popped up there. And the idea is to go, what do I do with the things that drain me? Can I do less of them? Can I delegate them? Can I change my mindset towards them? And then looking at the list of what energizes you is, how do I have more of that in my life, or how do I bring that energy into my day? So that's a great one that's like, very practical and simple to put in. I think another one which I will share a quick story. The first business coach I worked with was incredible and I worked with him for many years, and he asked me to map out my sort of calendar, my dream week, and I proudly showed it to him the next time I saw him, and he said, there's one major problem here. And I was so disappointed, because I thought I'd really balanced, like focus work and, you know, admin work and client calls and exercise and all these things. And he said, you don't have any white space on the page. And I realized that I always had that feeling of being on a hamster wheel or a treadmill that I was always saying to someone, hey, gotta go because my next call is in one minute, or gobbling down to lunch, between things, or fitting in something for me, but just not having that breathing room, so I think that's something that I'm still having to call myself out on. I don't think it's an easy thing to get right, but just literally having breathing space in your day makes it so much easier to enjoy each part of it. Also just having clarity on mapping out your day or your week. So you know where you need to be, you know how you need to show up, and just can get into kind of a healthy rhythm, whatever that looks like for you.

That's awesome. I keep returning to ambitious and impatient. I love the impatient part. Well, because there's that's partly what drives you, both your ambition and your impatience. But if I'm hearing you right, if you're not careful, that ambitious impatient Emma can also have the kind of day that you need a vacation from, a holiday from.

Absolutely, and I don't want to get to the end of the day and not be able to show up for my family or my partner, my friends, because I've used up all my energy or had the intensity of a day that leaves me empty. And I don't think we can avoid them, I think we can just be intentional about having fewer days like that, or weeks, or whatever it is.

That's fantastic. So, you run this organization Dapper, you're helping people create for themselves, you're helping people overcome imposter syndrome so they can tell their story, you're injecting fun into it, which I love. When you come on to podcasts like this, and I want to get to the energy part, I'm trying to follow your lead here. What questions that when you're asked about what you do, what is a question that brings you the most energy?

That's a great question. For me, I'm an Enneagram seven, so I'm an enthusiastic visionary. So, I think it's always looking at questions around like, what is the potential? Where could this go? So, something that we are working on is launching retreats, because I feel like immersing people in this way of thinking and being and building a strong authentic brand is just taking what we offer to a whole new level. So, I think talking about that sort of thing, my energy just immediately rises, because it's looking at future opportunities and ways to evolve what we do in a way that will serve our clients better and just build a bigger community of empowered, confident people who, yeah, embrace that, that finding joy.

Thank you for that. And by the way, you and I are Enneagram sevens. So, you know, there's a whole 12 step program for us Enneagram sevens.

I probably need it.

I know I do. So, that excitement that you feel for that and the you know what that brings you, energy, if I heard you right, like this idea of bringing people together live, and not just, you know, maybe doing the work over technology and phone, but bringing people together live, give us a little more on that, because I do want to dive into that, because I'm eager to hear what it means to tap that energy. What are you excited about with that the most? Tell me a little more about that.

So, my personal values are freedom, vitality and connection. And I think my personality and what I value, like authentic human connection is everything, and you can absolutely have that through Zoom. I mentioned the client earlier in Australia who I had this lovely rapport with but I just feel like the energy in a room can be transformative, and I think it's something I can bring is a lot of energy to a room and motivate and inspire people. And I just feel that connection is deeper in person and with breathing space. So, we talk about breathing space either side of a meeting, and this is just taking that concept, you know, a whole chunk or sort of leap forward, to really give people the time to work on what matters to them and to redefine success for each person. It's very easy to get caught up in what other people think success looks like, but it really should be a more personal journey, I believe.

God, that certainly hit all three of those values. Certainly, the connection piece. Kind of makes me feel like asking you what Covid was like in South Africa, and how for an Enneagram seven whose core value is connection, not to go dark on you, but did that make the pandemic particularly challenging for you?

It was really tough. I think we had a particularly strict lockdown. For the first five weeks we weren't allowed to leave the house. And I had recently come out of a relationship, and I remember my dad and stepmom saying, bring your kitten. Come stay with us. You can't be on your own. So, I did that, but it was then not my own space as much as it's, you know, a family home. It was really challenging and just having connection through a screen, I realized then how important it is for me to, like, recalibrate my career, because I was getting all my fun and energy from social activities and adventures, rather than building the life you don't need a holiday from. So as much as it was a really tough couple of months, I'm very grateful for it being a catalyst to have a good long look at some of the decisions and choices I'd made. I often think of that idea that you only need to be off course by a couple of degrees over time for that to make a significant difference. That sort of little nudge or big nudge to course correct.

That's just so great. Well, we certainly feel your vitality, and you definitely addressed the connection piece and it's the freedom piece. That was the first one that you said. And it's not that I don't understand the word. What do you mean by that? And how do you personally achieve freedom? And maybe, how do you help other people do that?

So, for me, freedom often comes down to freedom of choice, and I think that is something I encourage people to strive towards. I often explain that you need discipline to have freedom. So, it's not about not having commitments, but more about a freedom of Spirit, so that you feel you have autonomy and you are making healthy decisions, and that you're not feeling trapped or weighed down. And so that's what it means for me, and I think I touched on, you know, many of our clients, have a lot of responsibility and stress in their lives, and I want to help them find more ways to feel free of that. So, if that's fitting in, you know, a run after work, or adding meditation into their week, or feeling like they've got the freedom to choose if they take on a new role and not just doing what's expected of them. So those are some of the ways freedom comes up in a work context.

That's so great. So great. I hate to put this kind of pressure on you. I've got so many questions, but I so want to be into the kinds of things that bring you vitality and freedom. What else do you really love to speak about with regard to your work or your life? What else pops up for you? Like, man, something that really brings me energy, is what?

I think it's getting people to, and it speaks to the freedom, is realize that they do have a choice. That they can change things. I think a lot of people feel stuck or that they've got to continue as they are. If we look at in the context of branding, they might go, oh no, well, this is my reputation, this is what I'm known for. And I love helping them realize that they can change that narrative and that each of us have a brand, our stories are out there in the world, and we have the opportunity and the freedom to shape that narrative and to show up with intent and to really lean into the opportunities that are around us. And I think that this will take us down a whole long rabbit path that we won't have time for, but I think we're so often held back by fear. So, I'm really passionate about helping people figure out what is holding them back, and how do we remove those roadblocks one at a time and just take those micro steps forward. It's not about who shot the loudest or, you know, whose profile is the most impressive, it's going, what is one step closer to the brand and the story that that I want to hold and share with the world?

Oh, you're, oh my gosh, that's great. You're right about the rabbit path, though. See, you say things like that, and I wrote down 17 questions. Not really that many, but some questions, and it just brings us down a rabbit path. There is a, I don't know if he's famous, but there's a fairly prominent neuroscientist by the name of David Rock, and David Rock is actually South African. And he did this whole thing on, maybe you know about this, but he called it Narrative Circuitry, right? And we all have narrative, but you just brought something to the table of, you know, helping people. Is it hear the narrative? Reshape the narrative? Because that's not easy work. You know, I could tell you that my narratives have been going on for decades. So, when you hear someone who has maybe a, let's call it a self-limiting belief, which is ultimately a narrative, or the way that you put it, if I heard you correctly, like, this is my identity, this is my brand, and it's felt a little fixed, maybe help people who've been telling that narrative for years, how do you go about that? I love the micro step, by the way. I wrote that down too. But how do you actually help people have the courage to even explore a different narrative?

So, we take our clients through a six-month process, because you're right, it's not something you do overnight, and we ask a lot of questions, and we give them a lot of reflection exercises and hold space to unpack those conversations. So, I think that that's first prize, having that space. That's obviously not a scalable model, so we've also built an online course, and the idea there is build your own brand, and we ask a lot of the same questions, just in video format and worksheet. So, I think what we've developed is a process to get people to feel safe, to be vulnerable, to explore, to reshape that narrative. And a big part of it, like, it's such a simple question, but what really matters, now ask yourself that. Like, what is it that you want to share with the world? And people often say, well, I've got my home life and then my work life, and I'm like, no, looking at holistically. Yes, there'll be nuances and slightly different ways you show up, but at the core, you want what you stand for and your values to guide your behavior and for that to be consistent. So hopefully there are a few things there that are helpful, but it's not a quick fix, and it's absolutely something to evolve as you do.

You mean helping someone uncover their core isn't a quick fix?

Sadly, not.

You know, there's a lot of people who do what we do that are selling something like in five easy steps know your core. I love that it takes time, and that you would take the time with people. We want to make it as available as possible through our podcast here and through the show notes on the podcast. Dapper is your organization. You've got, I assume that if we go to Dapper.com or help us understand, how do we find you and how do people find Dapper who are listening to this that want to spend some more time with you?

They're very welcome to reach out to me directly on LinkedIn. It's Emma Donovan hyphen Dapper, and our website is BecomeDapper.com and very happy to also include a link for you for the show notes with more about what we do, and, you know, a discount for your listeners, if they would like to explore working with us. I am very happy to create one for them specifically, but also just so happy to have conversations and answer any questions that that people may have.

All right, just for the sake of fun, you're not going to offer my listeners a discount. In fact, we're going to add a premium, because what you're bringing to the table is too good. So, we're not discounting. We don't do that. In fact, it's 10% more if you even want to- I don't even know what more is, but we're adding on to it because we're going to help you shine your light. No way we're you're discounting those services. So, thank you. Thank you for your time. As we get off, I again, I'm putting pressure on you, was there something that gosh, I was hoping Steve would ask me that, and he didn't. Is there anything that you hoped I'd ask you that I didn't?

No, I think just sort of a closing phrase that maybe is relevant to the conversation is to find joy in the ordinary sort of links back to that idea of a life you don't need a holiday from.

I'm writing it down. In fact, that's it. We're calling this episode that. So, when my team reaches out me and asks what, just listen, we're going to call it finding joy in the ordinary. See, you just helped me title it, too. How much fun is that?

So glad I could help.

Emma, thank you so much for your time. So grateful to have you on the show. And again, we'll have all the show notes available for you. And I just have so much here. Really asking myself again about purpose. And so, if you're listening to the show, maybe you need to ask that question. Maybe we need to dive deeper into what your light is. Maybe you need to ask some questions about yourself in terms of leading a life and having a business that you don't need to take a holiday from. Maybe it goes back to imposter syndrome, which, by the way, we probably all suffer from at some level, or maybe you need to explore the narrative. Those are just some of the insights that were shared here. So, as we end all of our shows, what we're trying to do with the Insight Interviews is, yes, we heard Emma today, and it was just fantastic, but I know I can speak on her behalf when it doesn't really matter what her insights were, and even any that I might have shared doesn't matter. What ultimately matters are what are yours? What insights do you have? So, Emma, again, thank you very much for being on our show, and we look forward to possibly doing it again with you.

That would be great. Thanks, Steve.

Have a wonderful evening there in South Africa. Thank you all for being part of the Insight Interviews, and we'll see you next time.

                                                                                                             ---

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