224 Chip Massey - Former FBI Negotiator Helping People

In this episode, Jason and Chip discuss:

• The application of negotiation skills in high-stakes scenarios and everyday life
• Techniques for maintaining control over one's emotions during crises
• The significance of understanding others' perspectives and the real issues at stake
• Strategies for personal growth, leadership development, and crisis management
• Chip Massey's motivations for sharing his knowledge and transforming business practices

Key Takeaways:

• Expressing gratitude for influential figures is essential for personal development and success.
• Learning to control emotions can have a profound impact on crisis resolution and daily interactions.
• Perspective can drastically affect our reactions to stress and crises, and maintaining calm is crucial.
• The skills and experiences derived from hostage negotiation are highly transferable to business and personal life.
• Crisis situations, although challenging, can present substantial opportunities for growth and improvement.
  
  
  

“You have to see people from the standpoint that there is a person in front of you, each with their own experiences, heartaches, desperate situations, joys, hopes, and aspirations. We are all a combination of these things. Don’t lose sight of the fact that we are all human beings, struggling to find answers. We must support each other and not let things break down.”

 - Chip Massey

Connect with Chip Massey:

• Websites: https://convincingcompany.com/ , https://trainingsogood.com/
• LinkedIn
• Chip's Book
  
  

Connect with Steve and Jason:

• LinkedIn: Jason or Steve

• Website: Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking

• Email: grow@rewireinc.com
  
  

Listen to the podcast here:

Hello, and welcome, everybody to this episode of The Insight interviews. This is your host, Jason Abell, and I think I say this every episode, but dang it, this time I mean it. I just mean it. I've got a really unique and great guest that I am uniquely excited about, and timing and the way that the world has come together, I'm just excited to have this guest on our show. Our guest today, his name is Chip Massey. He's the co-founder of Convincing Company. If you haven't heard of Convincing Company, let me tell you what they do. They help fortune 500 companies, oh, names that you've heard of like Lockheed Martin, Samsung, SAP, Meta. When things are going well, they hire Convincing Company and when things are not going well, in other words, when crisis hit, and it's not crisis hit, it's just when, these same companies will hire Convincing Company to help them out. And you ask well, why is that? What's special about them? Why did these big companies hire them? Well, let me tell you why. Chip is a former FBI hostage negotiator. Prior to founding Convincing Company, Chip served as a hostage negotiator and a special agent, leading high profile criminal cases, such as investigating the September 11 terrorist attack. And then listen to this. Prior to the FBI, Chip was a pastor in Maryland. And so, you want to talk about a person that is uniquely gifted with certain aspects of life and in business? Well, that's Chip Massey. Chip, welcome to the show.

No, my pleasure to be here, Jason, thank you.

Chip, there's all kinds of directions that we could go in, but the very first question that we ask every host, and we've done this over 250 times now, just to get us facing in maybe what I would call the right direction, but a direction, is just to settle us down and clear the space a little bit and ask you, what is it, as you and I engage one another today, what or who is it that you're grateful for?

Sure. You know, I consider that who I am now has always been a product of the people that have come into my life and the people that have helped direct my steps, if you will. And so, for example, I am, you know, where I am today, you know, I have people that were in my parish that helped form me as a young minister. When I got into the FBI, there were people there that were just magnanimous in helping develop, interested in me, wanting the best. I always say, I am so grateful for the people that have invested in me and have taken the time. And you know, if there's any benefit from what I do now, to others, it's only because of those people that, you know, I just worked with amazing people, Jason. I just did. I could go on and on about these stars, these kinds of legends. And I got to learn from them, right? I got to pick their brains and see how they worked. And man, it was just a great experience. So yeah, it's definitely the people.

Well, we're all a product of the people around us and that starts, you know, way, way, way back when, you know, even from childhood and I guess, you know, I'd like to go back for a minute. The pastor to the FBI to a company that then serves, you know, other companies when crisis hit. Was there anything in your childhood or your background that led to this this route this navigation of life and business that you've had? Anything stick out when I asked that question?

Yeah, you know, and I've heard some other guests on your podcast say it, and I have to. It's definitely my parents, you know? The overall arching theme in in my family has been, you will help people, you know? Whoever, whatever circumstance that is, you will help people, and I saw that play out in their lives, and it just transferred to us. I have a brother and sister, both older, and they're the same, you know? We have that we have that mind. And like you, obviously, Jason, you're writing a book and college on start here. You are connecting to something that says, I've got to reach out, I have something I want to share with people. So, there's, you know, that heart has always been there.

Yeah, I wrote that down. You will help people. That is both a directive, but also, like just a unique gift and invitation, the way that you just said that. And so yeah, it makes sense. Whether it's pastoring, or your work at the FBI or even what you and your co-founder Adele do now, very interesting. Yeah. So, you and I are kindred spirits in that way for sure. Well, I can tell you, you're already helping people. And, man, there's so many different questions that I have for you, Chip, but what I'd like to know is, is there a particular story, I'm sure you have hundreds of stories from your time at the FBI, but is there a particular story that sticks out whether it was a particular hostage negotiation, or a project, an investigation that you're allowed to talk about that just sticks out? I mean, you know, who our audience of listeners are, you know, you and I talked a little bit prerecording of our interests, like, is there a particular story that sticks out to you that you'd like to share with us today?

You know, when you meet people in the FBI, you are meeting people, chances are, they're having their worst day in life. And that could be either, you know, I'm there to arrest them, you know, that's a crisis of itself, or I am there because they're the victim of a crime of something so horrendous that it calls us to respond. And, you know, I saw that in the ministry as well. When people are in crisis, when they are at their absolute lowest point, and they have, sometimes it's like, they have nothing to hold on to, and they're desperate to grab onto some kind of hope, and that's the thing I compare both of these callings to, is that I had an opportunity to help people at their most dire need, and what a privilege that was in the ministry, because, you know, I was the guy, I was the person, the representative that they knew that they could reach out to for whatever they were dealing with. And then the FBI takes on a different kind of character, but in terms of victims, you know, I think I go back to that story of Maria who had her daughter kidnapped, while she was crossing from Mexico into the Texas border. She was being led by coyotes, and, you know, presumably, they were there to help her, but we often know how many of them are corrupt. And so, they kidnapped her and 22 other people and put her into a hostage barn. And then, Maria, the mother, she reached out to us because she had no other meats of help. You know, they told her on every call, if you contact the police, law enforcement, we will kill your daughter. And they asked for money, every call, you know. It was 2500. It just kept up until the point where she borrowed from everybody, maxed out all their credit cards. There's nothing left. And she has this fear that if I say I've got nothing for them, what do I have then? What happens to my daughter? So, she does this incredible thing. I mean, the courage. She reaches out to the FBI, and my team goes and what we had to do in those in those minutes, because from the time we knocked on her door we had 40 minutes to teach her a skill set that I had taken my whole career in life really to learn, because that's when they were going to call again, she told us, she said, they're calling again, and it's going to be 40 minutes.

I'm on the edge of my seat right now.

You've seen it before, right? When they're so desperate, and they're at their wit's end, and they've got no other hope and they're looking at you as a representative of the FBI, my team, she's entrusting us in that moment with her daughter's life. So, I have to have the hardest conversation, and really teaching experience that this woman is ever going to have in her life. And she has to be able to not only hear what I'm saying, which is very difficult when you are under that kind of stress.

That's right.

But she also has to trust me. Somebody she's never known in her life, somebody that perhaps in her background, she's taught, don't. And these guys said, don't talk to the authorities. So, she has to lay it all on the line. And that moment, I just, you know, it just sticks with me, is that, you know, I'm lucky. I have the support of my team, you know? I am there responding to this woman's crisis of her daughter's life and she's there and wondering, is my daughter gonna be alive after today? So we take her through it, and we teach her the skill set, and the phone rings. And she does incredible. I mean, we're there. We're passing notes to her. We're letting her know what to say next, what kind of things to do, but still, she has to hold it together and she has to also, you know, be the person that doesn't give away that there's an FBI ag right next to her.

Sure.

So, can she communicate and do all this and act this way on a phone call? And she did magnificently.

I have to ask, well, Chip, I've got 11 questions in my head right now, but one of them is, we don't have 40 minutes here in this format, but could you give us the Reader's Digest version of what you taught her?

Yeah, so the first thing is always, how do I get in control of my emotions here? And you know, as a hostage negotiator, that's one of the first things that they teach you is, you are in control of your own emotions and how you are going to respond to the situation, right? We know that there's a basic level that says, right, I'm not reactive, I'm going to choose how I'm responding to every situation.

So good. Yeah.

So, you take that, and then you have to realize that the person I'm interacting with, let's say it's the hostage taker, I have to dial in to him in in such a profound way that all the distractions fall away. The lights, the sirens, the helicopters overhead, you know, the police that have the sections cordoned off, the press, all that noise of the walkie talkies, all that, right? I have to focus in. And I have to focus in on his prop. And this seems strange in a lot of ways and counterintuitive, because really, what do I want to do? I want to help the hostages. I want to get those people out and free. He's got a gun to their head. So, I can't focus on the gun. I can't focus on, oh, what if all these horrible things that could happen? People could die. What if? And that's the wrong mindset. The mindset is, you focus in on them. You focus in on what they're dealing with, and you begin with question something like this. What happened today that got us here? What you're doing is you're opening up the dialogue discussion, and what I want him to do is to talk. That's always what we want people to do, right, Jason? When you're evaluating people, when you're teaching teams, when you're teaching executives on how to interact out there, what you're asking them in this moment in time, is to say, you know, hey, I am here for you right now.

Yeah.

I've got to connect. And the way I do that is if you tell me everything. And a lot of times that comes with, you know, people are going to, you know, just go at you. It's going to be word vomit. They're going to insult you every which way, up and down.

Yep. Yep.

And I've heard it, I'd like to say all, but I'm sure there's something new under the sun, but they'll come at you in in a crisis moment, right? At the end, I love that my training now, where I am, is that I absorb, you know, and because I know there's going to be a nugget in there, give me something that I can work with. Maybe they can't stand, you know, their father, but loved their mother. Maybe it's that, you know, the only friend in the world is their dog. Maybe it's that, you know, all these horrible things happen to them, but this one thing, this one person at their job, just gave them, you know, they really liked. I'm going to find those things. Because in the end of it, Jason, I've never negotiated with anyone. That wasn't my job. It's kind of a mystery. My job was to convince that person to value what I value.

Hmm.

Right? It didn't happen right away. It takes time. But I can't say to that person, oh, you want $20 million and a jet? Yeah, we're going to do that for you. Nope, that never happens.

Right.

And it's never going to be, hey, you've got seven people in there, tell you what. Kill three, give me back four, and call it a day. It doesn't work that way. There's no options here. So, I have to fundamentally change how this guy thinks, because what I want him to value is life. I want him to value that he's in control there of possible outcomes, and wouldn't it be better for him right now to surrender to me and free these people? But that takes time.

Sure.

First, we're going to talk about $20 million. I know that. And we're going to talk about a jet. But we're going to talk all about those things, but not saying that we're going to give you that. So, it is absolutely about getting that information from people. And how do you do that? Be the kind of person that that is open that ask those open-ended questions that delves deeper into them when they tell you something about, you know, some critical moment in their life. Don't get distracted. You know what I mean? We're all guilty of it. You know, when we're on calls, right, and you hear people clacking in the background, you know they are typing, right?

Oh, yeah.

What we have to do when we know this is a serious call, somebody's you know, you're detecting something in their voice,, you heard that little catch, put that phone down in reverse, and you close that laptop, and you focus in. If you're on a phone, then you are just, you're wheeled away from anything that could distract you, and you dial in to that person. And they're going to eventually tell you.

So, I want to ask this question and I don't want to ask this question. How did it work out with Mary in the hostage situation?

Oh, oh, oh. So, yes. So again, I don't understand how a mother could handle all that, but yes, her daughter was freed along with the other 22 hostages. There was a group out in Texas that we were working with in parallel with their investigators and their FBI SWAT team. And yeah, everybody was freed that day.

Okay, that makes me feel really relieved. I wanted to ask that but I'm assuming it doesn't always work out there.

Right. Right, exactly.

But thank you for bringing the, you know, I asked for a story. You could have reached back into any of the treasure trove, but you reached out for that one, which ended well, which I'm happy about today. You know, I don't always do this, but I did. I was having a conversation with my wife Amy this morning and I told her I was going to be interviewing an FBI hostage negotiator. And right away, she said, well, I have a question for him. And that that rarely comes into this format but it was a compelling enough question that I feel like I want to ask it of you today, which is all those skills that you learned from pastoring, from the 20 plus years at the FBI, to what you're doing now, how does that help you specifically in life and business on a day to day, you know, kind of scenario? Like, you know, you can't always be in the moment that you were in with Mary, right? Because that's high adrenaline, high focus, but day to day, I would assume you've got either workshops, maybe it's the book that you hearken to right now, but on a day to day basis, how did those skills help you just in your everyday life, and then in everyday business?

Thank you. It's great. Jason. I think one of the interesting portions of how I am working now as opposed to how I work then is, I think it gave me a great perspective, in that, dealing with problems that companies and executives, people have now, it's a different thing. You know, it's not life or death, in that sense, but their stress level and their feelings of what has happened to them, you know, stress is relative. We know that. Right, Jason?

Very much. It is, it is.

And let's say I'm the CEO of a company, and we're going through something, you know? We're in a crisis situation. What am I thinking about? I'm thinking about what about my board of directors? How are they feeling about this? What about my employees who work for me? How are they going to view me? What is going to be my legacy as a result of this? Am I going to survive this? Is my company going to survive? So, nobody's got a gun to their head.

But they feel feels like they do.

Right? Because that that amygdala hijack happens. It is real big time.

Yep.

And the brain can’t differentiate between a physical threat and a social threat. So, it is the same,
correct?

Yep.

Right. And you know all about this. So, one of the things is helping people understand that you're going through something that in your mind is life and death, and there are particular ways of dealing with that. And I'm going to take you through this, because you're going to have to make some decisions, just like that woman, or you're going to have to make some decisions, and we're going to help you. Because we know.

Right.

It's one of the things that Adele says, is that, you know, you're making some decisions for the very first time in this kind of crucible. We've made them hundreds of times.

That's very comforting and very helpful.

It is. I've always appreciated when people like, you know, whenever my kids were sick, and a doctor would come over or, you know, we take them in, and they would say first thing, like, it's going to be okay.

Yeah, right. Yep.

We want the adults in the room to reassure us, to let us know, because those are the people that have that know-how to navigate through this, and we desperately need those people in our in our times of crisis. So, I think one of the funny things when I first started working with Adele and just laying this up a little heavy on the outside, is that we were brought in to this company and, you know, it was the weirdest thing, and she didn't really give me much of a briefing. She just said, hey, meet me here, we're going to work in it with a crisis in his company. And so, we went into the boardroom and there was one group that was over in the corner and some of them were crying. There was another group, you know, that was kind of yelling, sort of, at no particular person and there was a group that was sitting at the table. I still remember, they looked like zombies, right? I turned to Adele and said, what happened here? And she said, well, somebody sent an email unintended to another recipient that they weren't supposed to get. I said, come again? She said, yeah, as they hit send, they didn't mean to send to that person and so forth. And I said, nobody died.? No, not that. Okay, so there is not a mass casualty here. Okay. All right.

We're gonna be okay.

Yeah, we're gonna get through this.

And oh, my gosh, yeah, it is. It's all perspective. And when we enter into unfamiliar territory, you're right, our brain is not making the differentiation between, hey, there's a tiger chasing me versus I sent an email that I shouldn't have sent, right? Like our brain is going threat, threat. What do we do? Are we fighting? Are we flying? Are we, you know, whatever. And so, for somebody like you and Adele coming in, going, okay, we're going to be okay, and starting, kind of like we did our conversation today, right? Where we're digging into some heavy weeds right now and some heavy topics, but we started off with gratefulness. And that headed us off into a direction where everything else is going to be okay during our conversation, right? It just is.

Right.

And so yeah, I really appreciate that just starting off from a place of everything's going to be okay. And I know that this is the first time for you going through a crisis like this, but we've dealt with hundreds of these and we're going to be okay. Chip, I can see that being helpful as a parent of adult children myself right now. I can see that being helpful in parenting. I can see that being helpful in you know, your partner relationships, certainly in business, like the example that you gave and really the question that I asked, in everyday life. So yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. Tell me a little bit about this book, you and Adele wrote this book that's recently out and I feel like between my conversation with Adele and now my conversation with you, boy, there's some nuggets in there. So, who's the audience and what's the big idea of the book?

So, it's any person that wants to get better at, either they're trying to switch maybe a job role, let's say they've always been in accounting, but really, their passion is to be in marketing, or it's a junior VP, and they would like to be in the conversations of running a company someday and being that person in charge. Or it's a person that has to deal with the stress of crisis event, and how are they going to come through this? And what steps they need to take? And how do you conduct an interview? You know, how do you pick a candidate out? So, it's all about, you know, putting your best self forward, using your gifts, talents and graces, and focusing them on a way that shows the world who you are and what you're capable of. It's, you know, people that are striving for something. One of the things that we found in our research of a book, and likely Adele said this in her time with you was that we have the same convincing strategies, usually, that we haven't changed since we were around six. So, if you can get just one more, your odds of closing that next deal, perhaps, and not blaming the other person, but looking inward and what could I have done better, you're gonna have more tools to be more effective in that.

Yeah. So good. You know, I'm thinking about your answer there about the book and even going back to that story that you told of the Mary's hostage situation in Texas, and thinking about the other person, and what's important to them, and it may not be the thing that's right in front of you. I remember a long, long time ago, back in high school, my dad had me go into these real estate seminars pretty early in life and I remember, the topic of this workshop was negotiation, not hostage negotiation, but real estate negotiation and it really was the same technique of this particular speaker was talking about sweetening the deal, meaning, okay, you want to buy this real estate for less than the seller wants to sell it to you for and you're negotiating this and instead of just like, price, price, price, is there anything else that's important to that seller? Maybe they need to go quickly versus slowly. Maybe they're moving, and there's some way that you can help there. So, it's just this idea even, I'm just thinking of our conversation so far in business in life, think being open, being proactive, thinking about what the other person wants and it's not necessarily what is right in front of you right there. And how often do we see, and I know I am going from real estate to life here, but how often do we see like, when somebody is presenting themselves in front of you, whether it's a coworker, whether it's a client, even somebody in your family, they're super, super upset about this thing that's presenting, but when you ask those open ended questions that you talked about, Chip, it really has nothing to do with the thing that they're presenting. It's because of, they didn't sleep last night, they had a fight with their partner, you know, over the weekend, or there's this thing, and that is what is coming into whatever is presenting itself. So, yeah, you're making me have all kinds of insights right now as I listen to you talk about the book. I am compelled to switch gears a little bit, Chip, because, you know, I have somebody that was with the FBI in front of me right now and we're doing this interview July 16, 2024, where just not even a few days ago, there was an assassination attempt on, who is today, the presidential nominee, Donald Trump, on the Republican side for this year's election. And so, I don't even know really what I want to ask you about it, but if I don't touch on that, I feel like I'd be irresponsible. So, I don't want any of my questions to be leading, because I don't think that that would be appropriate, but is there any take that somebody you know of your experience has, I don't know if it's a take on how the rest of us should be looking at this, things that we should be thinking about, and again, I want to refrain from asking knew a specific question. Was there any type of unique take that you have on this situation that just occurred a couple of days ago?

I'm not sure it's unique, but I think what I would want people to consider, as things are ramping up, and I guess they have been for some time, and I know things always get out of hand, but there appears to be a sense of the dialog is just breaking down, and we're doing horrendously bad at it, right? With factionalism and just planting and digging in our heels, and we stopped listening and we've stopped caring about the answer and we stopped caring about engaging in dialogue. And I'm just saying, broadly, obviously, there are fantastic people out there and there are people that still want to get to the heart of matters and still understand each other, but really, that's the kind of thing, is that when things get so wrapped up, and so escalated, and people get caught up in the moment of something, whether they're being radicalized on the Internet, whether they're in touch with another type of break off group, and that's happening, whatever it is, the human condition has always been bedeviled by understanding and accepting differences and others. And one of the things from both of my time in the ministry and the FBI is that you have to see people from the standpoint of, there is a person in front of me and they come with their own set of experiences, and heartaches, and desperate situations and joys and hopes and aspirations and we're all a combination of those things, as we know, but don't lose sight of the fact that we're all human beings that are just struggling to find answers. And we have to be there for each other, and not let things break down. And the different dialogues that happen within families, and things will break down in these kinds of times, but if we can hold to those things that unified us, you know, hey, I grew up with you, right? You taught me how to ride a bike, or I know you for your business from down the street. I came in there all the time. And, you know, you helped me put air in my tire as a kid, or, you know, there are ways that we can connect, and we need desperately to connect with others.

Yes. So good. Thank you for that. Thank you for that take. Again, there's so many roads that we could go down, but I just wanted to put a canvas up in front of you, and have you painted the way that you wanted to paint it and I just taken notes during the whole time that you were talking there. So, thank you for that. Gosh, we're going around third and head towards home, and it hurts me to be towards the end of this conversation, Chip. As we do that, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want our audience to know today?

I don't think so. I think, you know, one, I'm grateful for you, and this podcast and the voices that you have come in and talk and describe their particular specialties and how you bring that out, as in hopes that it's just so well done. So, thank you for that.

That's kind of you. Thank you. Thank you, is there? Is there a particular project or what is in front of you, I feel like we've engaged one another enough to know, I mean, you mentioned words like hope, and, you know, the human condition, so I feel like you're a person that's just looking over the horizon at what's next. Growth, development, those types of things. Is there anything as you look over that horizon that you're particularly excited about these days?

You know, with every crisis brings the opportunity if we look for it, and if we're open to it. And I think that's it. I know we're going through a tough time in this country, but I do know that there's another side, that there is a sunrise coming and we're going to be better, you know, we're eventually going to get there. And I guess one of the things I love with when we work with companies and individuals is that there's so much help out there that, you know, to improve their situations and to grow as an individual and as a company and to accomplish their goals that they are trying to do, just like you guys do with your company. So yeah, I love our training that we do. I love the immersive nature. I love being able to put people back into the Quantico mindset of a hostage negotiator that I got to experience. And so, I'm having a blast working with Adele. She's taught me so much and, you know, she spent hundreds of hours interviewing me when we first started to work together. And she found how that we can use what I learned at Quantico and as a hostage negotiator, and years as an agent, and put that over as a business template. And it's just, it's so much fun. Now, I knew there was always something, but I could never articulate it, Jason. I know there's something I got, and Adele said, well it's this, this, this.

Well, I think you articulated a pretty darn good today, Chip, I really do. And with that message of hope, I had, gosh, that is a good place to end. So, thank you for that message. Thank you for your insights today. Thanks for serving the audience of the Insight Interviews. I wish you the best, although I don't feel like you need that. There are really cool things that you're doing in the world today and we'll make sure that all of your contact information is in the show notes, but is there is there a preferred way for people to find you or reach out to you?

I think just, you know, go to our website, and we have also trainingsogood.com is also available for people who want to learn more, and see what else we're up to.

Perfect. Well, Chip, we will make sure the book and the contact information and all of that is in the show notes, but for today, I thank you so much for your time. This has been a pleasure. This exceeded expectations and my expectations were pretty high, and it exceeded that. So, thank you so much. Chip Massey, I hope we talk again soon.

Yeah, same Jason, thank you.

So many insights from Chip Massey, former FBI hostage negotiator. Boy oh boy, first things first, he said that his parents were people that he was particularly grateful for and just a quote that he got from his parents that have made an indelible mark on him, or even who he is today, which is you will help people, you will help people. And I think that drives everything else that we talked about, quite honestly, when he told that story of Mary and the hostage negotiation situation on the Texas border, really focusing in on the other person's problem, which may not be the problem that is presenting itself. That's just so helpful in life from a parenting situation to a business situation and just in everyday life situation. And then perspective, the insight that he gave us about just perspective, you know? This may be the biggest thing that the person in front of you is dealing with that makes it a crisis for them, but it may not be for you and for you to go in to helping somebody in the midst of a crisis with just the very opening line, the very opening stance of hey, it's going to be okay. We're going to get through this. What a great reminder. And then just at the end there, the thing that I wrote down and I starred, just such a great insight for me at least is this: with every crisis brings opportunity. So, it was a great message of hope for me, but as we say at the end of every episode of The Insight Interviews, it doesn't much matter what me as the host what my insights were, but what really matters, dear listeners are what were your insights?

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