214 Ashley Stephenson - If You Don't Measure It, It Manages You

In this episode, Jason and Ashley discuss:

• Leadership, Culture, and Wisdom
• Boosting Team Performance with Stack Ranking
• Empowering Teams through Measurement and Culture
• Fire Capital: A New Lending Venture
• Building a Purpose-Driven Private Lending Business

Key Takeaways:

• Creating a customer-centric culture and delivering exceptional service in the mortgage industry
• The importance of leadership in creating a positive organizational culture
• Implement stack ranking to motivate teams and foster a culture of proactive care and teamwork
• Prioritize measuring performance, fostering team culture, and providing exceptional customer service
• Amplify Fire Capital Group's focus on serving underserved areas in the private lending industry

“You don't manage what you don't measure. If you're not measuring it, it's managing you. I truly believe that if you measure it, what gets measured gets done.”

 - Ashley Stephenson

Connect with Ashley Stephenson:

• Website
• LinkedIn
  
  

Connect with Steve and Jason:

• LinkedIn: Jason or Steve

• Website: Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking

• Email: grow@rewireinc.com
  
  

Listen to the podcast here:

Ashley Stephenson- If You Don't Measure It, It Manages You

Hello, and welcome, everybody to this episode of The Insight Interviews. This is your host, Jason Abell, and I've got a special guest with me today. You know, oftentimes, we'll go to our pool of past guests and ask them, hey, who would be a really a really great guest for us to have on the show? And we get some really interesting people that way, and today is one of those days. I've got as our guest today, and you're going to learn some just amazing leadership and culture things from this person, but Ashley Stephenson. Ashley is co-founder and COO of Fire Capital Group, a brand-new venture that is hitting the market, almost as we're dropping this episode. There are all kinds of things that Ashley has done in the lending space and leadership space, and we're gonna get into all that, but Ashley, welcome to the show, my friend.

Hey, Jason. Good afternoon, and thanks for having me.

We’re excited that you're here. You know, we again, we got introduced to you through one of our previous guests, and it was like, no, no, this isn't just a referral, like you need to interview Ashley. And so, then you and I chatted, and we talked about some leadership things and I'm like, okay, this is going to be good. So, first of all, for those who don't know, would you mind just giving us a maybe 90 second background of who the heck is Ashley Stephenson?

Sure, sure. So, a little bit about me. I'm a second-generation mortgage banker with about 30 years’ experience in mortgage. I've had key leadership roles and servicing sub servicing multiple vendors that support the mortgage banking industry, as well as managing a operations for a multi-state law firm. And I've had the privilege of working in the forward mortgage space and then the reverse mortgage space, and in the past couple years, I've just started delving into the private lending sector. So, kind of well-rounded all the way around in terms of all the different products and approaches and the regulatory needs, which has been really wonderful. I am all about operations. I'm a very operations centric leader. I obsess over process design, how things operate, and developing future leaders and creating a great work culture to support all the incredible customers in the service they deserve. And I kind of apply that mindset of you know, to me, a customer is not just the person purchasing services from you. To me, customers are internal parties, external parties, your vendors. Every one of those are customers. I've always strived to create or be the company that you wanted to work with, not the one you had to work with That all starts about having a caring and supporting team and building that culture mindset so that everybody is franchised in, to delivering that same type of service. I'm a firm believer that if you have a happy team, you create happy customers and yeah, to have a happy team is a lot of work. But and it starts with the culture. So, to me, you know, it's not just ops, it's not just people, it's not just design, it's putting all those things together and getting them to work in unison, is what I really always endeavor towards. So that's a little bit about me. On the personal side, father of two daughters, which is very humbling because they tend to have an emotional intelligence that just is unique and is always something that I'm learning from, from their points of view. And you know, I live in Austin, and I enjoy music, the water, you know, and just hanging out and doing things in spare time with my friends.

 

Man, thank you for that intro. In my mind, you know, I already knew the direction that we were gonna go in because you and I have done a couple prerecording chats, but I just came up in my head with about 38 Other questions based on having two daughters, based on living in Austin, based on the wide range of experiences that you've had in the past. But after that intro, I'm going to ask you the first question that we ask every guest and we've done this over 200 times now Ashley, and then we're going to dive into some of the things that that you just intro there and your bio, but as you and I engage one another today in the beginning of 2024, who are what are you grateful for today?

Gosh, so many things. I have been absolutely blessed to have the group of folks that have supported me through my career that I've learned from. I've had some incredible mentors, I've had some incredible executive coaches, and then with both my mother and my stepfather being in this space, I've been able to accelerate my connections at a very early point in my career. That's really given me insight into a lot of different ways people approach problems and how they approach their work and their business and the frameworks. And so those things I'm always grateful for. And then you know, always mom, you know, I don't know, I don't know, you know, most people, but for me, yeah, the mom is queen of queens. I have watched that woman my whole life, you know, raise two boys on her own for many years before she remarried. And she had to carve her own path with not a lot of support. And throughout that whole time, never did I feel like we were unsupported, that we went without, or that I ever had a need, even when we really didn't have a lot, but she always made it feel like everything was bountiful. So, I'm very, very grateful. And I'm still very fortunate that, you know, my parents are around, and I get to talk with them every day. And so those are the things I'm most grateful for. And then the business partners I have. I got an absolute wonderful set of business partners. And so again, I can have straight talk with them. Everybody's got thick skin and a good sense of humor. So, we're able to really break through things and get through stuff without all the red tape and the minutia that tends to get into the corporate world. So, you know, a lot of things.

It sure does sound like it. I mean, I saw your face light up when you're talking about those things, and you didn't hesitate. I love the phrase always mom. That is something that really hit me there as you were talking and heck in the next month or so, Mother's Day is going to be coming up. And so I don't know, I feel like there's going to be some neat things in your future when that happens. But yeah, thank you for answering that. I already know much more about you than I have even through the different discussions that we have just by answering that question. So, thank you for that. Let's dive in. In your intro and in some of the things that we've talked about in the past, boy, I hear from you loud and clear, Ashley, that leadership, I don't want to say it means everything to you, but boy, is it important. And then this linking of leadership to culture, and how that happens just seems to be something that one, you've thought a lot about, two, you know, you've got a lot of tread underneath of you with the different organizations that you've been involved with. And so you have the experience with this. Would you just mind riffing a little bit on the connection between leadership and culture and maybe your take on that?

Yeah, yeah, I think I've got an interesting kind of slant on that. So, to me, leadership is many things, and it has high demands on a person. I think a lot of folks get into leadership as they progress through their job, you know, they're the, you know, best specialist and they become a supervisor, and then they become a manager. And there's kind of that Rubicon you've crossed that, you know, you have to have a good balance of subject matter expertise, but you really got to understand people, you know? And so to me, you know, leadership, you have to understand people and their subject matter expertise, but then you also have to have a good cache of frameworks, and that's where I've been really lucky with a lot of great executive coaches. I know that if you talk to any of the folks that have worked for me for any amount of time, especially as a direct to me, they'll tell you, the Rockefeller situation analysis is something you will come into my office if you gotta have a heavy discussion, knowing what's right, what's wrong, what's missing. What's confusing, where's the threat? Where's the opportunity? I also think understanding motivation and reward. I've had staff that if you walk by every day and tell them, hey, really appreciate what you're doing, it makes her world and if you don't walk by that day, it's the same as telling them they did not so well. Whereas the person right next door to them, you go in and tell them, hey, great job today, they think something's up, like why would you just randomly fly by? So understanding each person's needs, I think is really important in leadership. And then message delivery. I think in many cases, how you deliver a message can sometimes be more impactful than the message itself.

Yep.

And then the last two things are the ones that I really try to focus on. And once the concept of Omotenashi, a Japanese cultural approach of trying to have empathy. Treating every experience with a customer, like it's the only time you'll get it. Anticipating what they need before they even know they need it and solving it for them and being authentic when you deal with them. And I believe that builds trust with that customer. And I believe that that results in them advocating and I think, for me, word of mouth is probably some of the best advertising you'll ever get for your business. And then last is wisdom. And I kind of got this little thing I call stumble upons, that that came from, you know, living in Austin and going to this concert venue called ACL for, gosh, since the 90s. And I'll unpack that one a little bit. So when I was very young, in my career. I was at a claims company, we're on a very much eat what you kill diet, you know, we got paid by the claim, we knew how many we needed to do to, you know, make our bills and do what we needed to do.

Sure.

And, you know, I went to ACL many, many times, and I've been going for years, I'm now getting older. And the three-day weekend stuff is too much for me. I'm now a little bit more prescriptive on the days, but when you'd go for the three-day weekends, there's nearly 70 to 80 bands playing every year. And I've found that over the years, I would regularly stumble upon a band I had never heard about and absolutely loved them and added them into you know, the library.

Sure.

And then I realized there were many aspects about leadership that were also kind of stumbled upon. And, you know, like I mentioned, I think, you know, great leadership comes with all those things I talked about of building that great culture, because I think they're tied together. I think poor culture is a lack of, or a result of poor leadership. I think that leadership, while it's more than just building culture, but if you can't create that culture, you're always going to have a lack of performance and job satisfaction, because I also firmly believe people work for people, not for companies that, you know, they really appreciate the folks that are around and knowing that their work is impactful. So, beyond the stumble upon, you know, kind of unpacking that out, you know, I was in my early 20s, I was a manager at a claims team for a small company, like I mentioned, and Jack Welch was really big at the time. So, this was pre-2000. And I'd read about his stack ranking.

Yeah.

And I thought I'd give this a try.

Describe that I read books that Jack wrote and books about him that people wrote. Describe the stack ranking process to me because it it's fascinating.

Yeah, you take those critical measures, and you stack rank them from, you know, best to worst. And then you set targets of saying get, you know, the bottom 30% have to be addressed.

Yeah.

And it's most strict as performance, you would say that you would just cut the bottom 30 every quarter and reload.

Right.

I'm a little more fluid than that. But I've started out with that stack ranking. You know, just to kind of say, okay, when I show everybody how they're doing and where they're at, that's going to motivate them. That was my belief. I was maybe 25 at the time, you know, and hadn't had a coach yet, hadn't really had a mentor was still kind of feeling it all out. And candidly, we were cutting our teeth at this company, all of us the ownership was in their mid-20s, none of us were experienced, we were just, you know, flying by the seat of our pants. And so on that stack ranking, you know, I kind of took that same approach. So, we did claims every day we had you know, metrics we expected by each claim type. And so, I stacked the team high to low and I started putting it out there every day. And I noticed that I had really a barbell bench. And I had a group that were really high performers, and I had a group that were really struggling to kind of keep up to that measure. And I also noticed over, you know, after doing this for a couple of weeks that I started having people walking around with their chin up and a bunch of Eeyore's. And I'm like, Okay, this is not helping.

 

Sure.

And so, I always have weekly team meetings with the whole, you know, kind of a town hall every week just to tell everybody where we're at what we're doing, what's going on, where did we win, where did we failed, you know, why? And so I thought, okay, I'm going to add the average. So, I'm going to take the staff rank, and I'm now going to create a another employee called average. And I averaged everybody's work. And, you know, kind of talked to them in this town hall about, look, when you get into the elevator with anybody from the executive leadership team, they don't see you as a 10 and you as a one, they see every one of you as a five, because that's what your average is. They don't know that that Bobby is a 10 and Mark is a one. That they don't know. They just know that that team that claims team, on average puts out five and the goal is eight.

Sure.

So when I did that, I started noticing the high performers after that conversation, taking care of the lower performers. Because before, they were really jockeying to kind of maintain their position as leader of the pack.

Yep.

And I think those people are really competitive and I saw them wanting to bring the average up, because they didn't, you know, they're putting out tens, but they're looked at as a five, didn't sell well with them. And so, I started watching them take care of the folks that were struggling. And then I saw the whole score tend to come up, like everybody started to come up. And I thought, okay, well, this is really cool. But what I wasn't prepared for was the real magic of this. And that's what I noticed about a month or so later. So, about a month later, I walk in one morning, and two of the team members were out sick. And being a production-based environment, okay, I've, you know, I dive into how am I going to triage and solve for those claims that were going to be done. And one of the team members, not the supervisor, and not the manager, just one of my team members came in, and started talking and I told them, yeah, I'm triaging what we're going to do and they said, you don't need to do that. We've already solved it. We've already looked at the claims, we've already looked at who can do which one's best, you know, based on state this that we've already read, distributed the work and everything will be done. And that's when I had this kind of stumble upon epiphany of, okay, this all started out with the average, you know, I stack ranked, and I kind of created a have, have not, you know, cohort, underperform, no performing cohort, then I put the average, and I noticed they started helping each other. And then from the help, they started caring about each other. And they started proactively caring about each other. And so, I thought that was really interesting. So, while I was in my next life at a new job, that was production based, I did the same thing. I had wanted to test it out, you know? When I graduated college, I graduated with a Psych and Associates double major, so I've always loved in studying people at the individual level and at the group levels. So, you know, behavior is something I really enjoy, you know, kind of just picking apart. And so, I tried this, again, at another company, very similar results. I did the same protocol, I did the stack rank, no average. I let that go a couple of weeks. And then I did the average communicated to the group, the same message, same type of thing started happening. So while I can't say there's a one to one connection, correlation, but there is a connection, for sure. For me, I have noticed there is connective tissue there in those two things. And what I've noticed is it creates a happy team. And again, back to what I believe. A happy customer is, you know, a result of a happy team and a happy team as a result of a great culture. So, you know, kind of going down that whole path of people work for people, not companies and happy employees equal happy customers. So, to me, if I want a happy customer that gives great service, I need to have great employees and that is stacked on a great culture that’s founded on good and great leadership.


Yeah. Wow. So good. That that story is, you're not just giving a philosophy or a framework, you're telling your specific stories, two of them, of how exactly that worked for you. So that thank you for doing that. For the people that are listening, you know, there's a lot of most of our listenership as leaders, C suite, presidents, founder CEOs. If they're listening to this, and anything that you just said was intriguing to them, which I have a feeling it will be, what might be one or two steps that they could tangibly take in the direction of what you just did? Like, they're thinking about their own organization and they're going well, that Ashley guy, what he said, that sounded very interesting. I wonder, what's one or two steps that I could take in that direction? What advice would you give to that CEO?

Well, I mean, I've got a couple of firm beliefs. Aside from the ones we talked about, that if you've heard me as I'm like, a broken record on these. You don't manage what you don't measure. If you're not measuring it, it's managing you. I truly believe that you if you measure it, what gets measured gets done.

Yep.

And, you know, when you measure something, you can manage it, you can look at your controllable delays, uncontrollable delays, or breaks in the process, root cause those, optimize, cleanup. So, to me, like I said, this particular stumble upon is more about production base. And I would follow the same thing, provide the measures, provide the team an average so they have a team identity, not just the individual identity. So shared identity, that there's my identity that I did, you know, x units per day, but then there's the team identity of as a team, we do this. And then fostering that team, you know. And that's, you know, where those soft skills come into play. You know, one of my executive coaches, you have to be approachable and personable.
                                                                                                           
"I am not a fan of the unapproachable leader. I like the open-door concept. I like people not feeling apprehensive when they come to talk to me. I always tell folks that work for me, the only thing I ask is that you give me straight talk. Just tell me what it is. Don't tell me less than what it is or more than what it is. I'm not going to shoot the messenger. I can only help when I understand what it really is."

So, my advice is, one, get the right measures down. Two, build that team culture, you know, so that the team understands and looks at the world through the same lens that the customer just isn't the end purchaser with the money. The customer is the department upstream from you, the department downstream to you, the vendors I work with, because I can tell you working at a vendor shop, you know, if my staff for keeping numbers simple, has the output production of 10 per day, and I got 12 that need to be done, most of the time, and nobody likes to say it, you know the two that aren't going to be done. You know which client and you know which client you're going to make sure are absolutely included in that 10.

Yep.

                                                                                                                 
"And so, I like to be that company you want to work with. So, back to the question, what would I tell the folks? Yeah, measure what you do, reward the people for great measures, reward them even more for helping each other, and then show them the result of what they do. Everybody loves to see the tangible effect of their work product, no matter what they do. I've never come across somebody that does not like to know that their work for those eight hours meant something productive."

It matters. And I think a lot of this, you know, goes back to that Omotenashi concept of, you know, it's a mutual respect for everybody. The customer and you and understanding that they're taking their time and money to spend it with you. So, you need to be, you know, beyond philosophical on that, that, take it real, you know? Try to anticipate what they need, you know, pay very close attention to the details of what's going on and gain an understanding of the customer so you don't only meet what they need, but you exceed it and anticipate it. And then you know, that literally comes across as you being authentic. You know, and that matters a lot. People like to know when you tell them something it's true.

Not only coming across authentic, you are authentic.

Yes.

You do care. That's what I'm taking from it. I'm sensing a very unique blend of art and science with you, Ashley, where, like you said, hey, you graduated double degree social psych like, you observe people, you're very interested in how that works, but you also are applying the science of productivity measure. I wrote down, you don't measure it, it manages you. Like you're into what gets measured gets done like. It's both of those things together. Because if it was just the science of measure, measure, measure, get done, beat people over the head with a with a stick, well, you're missing all the other stuff that you've been talking about. The culture building, the team building, taking ownership mindset as a team, you know, things like your story with the insurance claim. That day, when the two people were out, and the rest of the team took over, that day doesn't happen the same way without you building the culture that you've been talking about. So I just, I really appreciate the overlay of the art and the science there. And that's what helps to make really great leadership and really great culture. That's what I'm hearing from you.

Yeah, and I'm a firm believer of it. I think that if it's straight production, that's by definition, what a sweatshop is, you know?

Yeah that is not what we're going for it.

Yeah, no, no. I think that especially in our industry, everybody is about time and money, but everybody also wants to be treated with care, and they want to feel important, and they want to know that their business is important. And I think that sharing those values, becomes transparent. And I believe those people become advocates, for your company, that you build that trust, you build that loyalty, and you're not trying to overtly push it on them, you know? It's something that just organically happen. And, it's a subtle approach, and if it's done right, the results of working under that kind of approach organically creates that customer for a lifetime. And not only does it create that customer, but the folks that they know that also need those services. And I just love that opportunity, and I really, really love, I get so much satisfaction, almost equal satisfaction out of a perfect scorecard as much as a perfect 360 from our customer.

Sure.

We hit homeruns. To me, one without the other feels kind of shallow or hollow. I like having both.

You mentioned, you said our industry, it's a really good segue into what you're working on now. You've got a new venture, you know. I introduced you as the co founder and CEO of fire capital and I know enough about fire capital know, it's pretty interesting venture that you're starting. Would you mind, just telling us a little bit about it and what your plans are?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to. So fire capital is kind of the brainchild and the product of a couple of things just falling right into place, just right place, right time, right people. So, Dana Giorgio, who I know you've had on as a guest in the past, she is my co-founder, she is the CEO, I'm the COO. And we did this through a holding company of folks that we've also worked with in the past. And so there was a lot of camaraderie there. And what was interesting is, I met Dana at a prior company, and, you know, she had all the lending, I had all the servicing. And, you know, we learned very quickly that we shared a lot of the same philosophy and our approach that you can have the most wonderful lending experience, but if you have a terrible servicing experience, nobody's coming back. Why go through the grinder again? We also both realize, we've both got about 30 years experience in two different areas of our of our business, and we really created a nice yin yang of all those blind spots of where she hasn't worked or hasn't had the experiences where I'm, you know, that's my sweet spot, and vice versa. All the things about lending, that's been her world for 30 years, you know? So and that's my more of my blind spot in the bigger picture of it. So, between the two of us, we really complemented each other from our knowledge base. And then secondly, from a personality aspect, we get along so exceptionally well. We can sit down and vehemently disagree on something and get done and you know, it's all good. We understand that we're not always going to agree. And that's what we value about each other. So we've started fire Capital Group, and we're exploring playing in all the sectors of lending from credit revolving to direct lending, you know. A loan sells. Buying loans, but then also the servicing and servicing initially will be a support function or the lending. And then as we get our sea legs underneath us, get everything done, and get to where we feel we offer more than what's out there in the market presently, then we want to start servicing for others, and kind of shaping what we can deliver in value to folks. I feel like in our space, private lending, there's a lot of underserved areas that are opportunistic, that we're looking to capitalize on. Being in Forward mortgage, you know, for many years, you know, highly regulated highly, you know, I mean, there's so much going on, and all the different investor rules and agency rules, and then going into reverse and it's almost like spinning your head, because you're not collecting payments on reverse, you're dispersing payments.

Yep.

You know, you're giving equity back to the people, but you gotta validate those due and payable reasons. They got to occupy the house, they have to be alive, you know, they have to pay their escrow. And so that was like a real mind spin on how you approach it. And then to go into private lending, which has less regulatory, and that's a good and a bad, you know? The regulatory kind of forces you to stay between, you know, a space, which is the good thing about it, the bad thing is it doesn't let you kind of color outside the lines and make something better.

Yeah.

And so, we get that opportunity in this space. And as a result, I think this industry is still maturing; there's a lot of great people in it. A lot of smart and a lot of gritty people, you know, when you go to the conferences to each of the different groups, it's a very different people profile. I mean, there's, you know, there's common fabric between them all, but very different folks that you're going to encounter at a forward mortgage convention to a reverse. So, I look at a lot of great opportunities in there, Dana saw it, we had the opportunity to start fire capital, and so yeah. We are right now in the throes of getting ready to launch the brand and kind of put everything out. So, we've been very secretive about what we're doing. We haven't broadcast to anybody, NDA bombs on everybody who wants to talk to us to make sure that we kind of keep it under wraps, like everything in this industry, there's always a little spillover. But you know, that's what we're doing and we're really excited about it. And, you know, we are taking the approach of, we're only going to take things on, as we feel we are really perfectly oriented to take it.

Yeah.

we're not going to do this sell and repent thing. We're not going to try and catch a tiger by the tail and wrestle it down, if we happen to get it. You know, that's not what we're doing. We want to make sure that everything is pressure tested, it's good, and then we'll launch that service. And then as we get the next one set up, we'll watch that. And so, we're taking a very pragmatic approach. But, we're both very, very excited, and just can't wait to really start getting out there, getting our brand out there, and really start hitting some underserved areas. We think that there's that small and medium size guide that's out there, that they've got a lot of throttles that that are holding them back and we want to open that throttle up for them. We want to sit down and give them the opportunity to make that leap from small to medium from medium to big.

Yep.

We want to be that capital partner with them, and we want to do the whole journey with them. We want them to be a customer as for anything and everything that we can support for them. And we want to build that through trust. We want to build it again, through the culture, we're building, that, you know, when they talk to us, they get that white glove service. Everything is presented perfectly, we are thinking about what they need before they do. We're out there trying to solve for them. We're out there trying to give them a different approach or a better approach than what is customary in the market. So, I'm really excited. I could talk an hour on what we're building.


Yeah, it's fun to listen because I see you lighting up as you're talking about fire Capital Group and I know with what we've already talked about as far as the leadership and Culture building and those types of things, you apply that to fire Capital Group along with your passion around wanting to serve, you know, the currently underserved private lending market. Man, I wish you all the best. And I see really good things for you. It'd be fun to do a follow up interview, Ashley, maybe in a year or something like that, to see, okay, fire opened up. Here's the deal. Here's what's happening. We've got this great culture going. Yeah, we made these mistakes. But here's like, I just love to have a follow up, so maybe at some point in the future, we'll do that. But I wish you all the best, as far as Fire Capital Group goes, and all the new ventures, I have a feeling some of our listeners might want to look you up or reach out to you. If indeed I'm right about that, what's the what's the best way for people to find you, Ashley?

LinkedIn, I'm always on LinkedIn. So, LinkedIn is the easiest way to get in touch with me, I respond to my messages in there. I see all those as they happen. So yeah, LinkedIn is it.

Perfect. So Ashley Stephenson with Fire Capital Group and find him on LinkedIn. And Ashley, you have delivered, and you have abundantly, you know, over delivered in my opinion. And so, thank you so much for your expertise. Thanks for your transparency and some of your stories that you gave to us today. We just thank you for your service today. And we'd love to have a follow up conversation at some point in the future.

I look forward to it, Jason, and thanks again for the time, I do appreciate it.

Indeed. All kinds of insights today with Ashley Stephenson. First of all, how cool is the name of his new company Fire Capital Group? Like I don't know, if I needed a private loan for a real estate deal that I was doing love to get a loan from a group called Fire Capital. Very, very cool. Insights, boy, that one of the very first things he said when he was answering about gratitude, always Mom, I don't know. That hit me. I don't know if that hit you, but deep good stuff there. But business wise insights I wrote down if you don't measure it, it manages you and what gets measured gets done. And it wasn't this like counting into like measure, measure, measure and then force your people into the measurements and the things that you want to them to achieve. No, no, he very clearly articulated like, you lead people differently based on their skill level, their personality profile, their wants, their desires and gifted zone. And so there was, you mentioned empathy, Jack Welsh. Just different types of leadership and managing methodologies and that just really appreciate it. And it gave me some insights into the art and the science of leadership and the way that he's been able to blend the two. So dear listeners, those were my insights. But as we always say, on every episode of The Insight Interviews, it doesn't much matter what me the host what my insights were, but really what matters is what were your insights?

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