Angela Cheng-Cimini, Senior Vice President, Talent & Chief Human Resources Officer for Harvard Business Publishing, brings 30 years of diverse HR experience across consumer goods, professional services, high-tech, and nonprofit sectors. She has successfully guided companies through various growth stages, leading teams across major continents. Prior to her current role, Angela was instrumental in transforming the HR function at ClearMotion, Inc., and led a global HR team at Crabtree & Evelyn, driving the company’s transition to a digital business model. A Cornell University alumna, Angela is actively involved in the Alumni Board of Directors, serves as an HR Venture Adviser for SemperVirens, co-leads the HR Vertical for Ascend, and is a Board Director for the T. Howard Foundation, championing diversity in the media industry.
In this episode, Jason and Angela discuss:
- Impact of personal stories on business strategies and growth
- Role of gratitude and family support in personal and professional life
- Tensions between self-doubt and confidence for Asian American women in leadership
- Evolution of leadership towards simplicity and compassion
- The intersection of HR challenges with effective team management and strategic planning
Key Takeaways:
- A life strategy, rooted in foundational principles, can profoundly shape not only business outcomes but also the arc of one's entire life.
- Angela's personal narrative demonstrates a progression from familial expectations to thriving in executive roles, which illuminates the blending of confidence and doubt as crucial elements of her journey.
- Reflecting on leadership, the shift from traditional, authoritative styles to approaches marked by empathy underscores the values that contemporary HR leaders should embody.
- The 'not now' card system fosters an environment where transparent communication and effective project flow are prioritized, benefiting team dynamics.
“Leadership is a first principle. Organizations can't achieve their goals whether it's grabbing market share, improving margins, or getting great customer feedback without truly investing in their people. Leaders need to know how to take care of them.”
- Angela Cheng-Cimini
Connect with Angela Cheng-Cimini
Connect with Jason and Steve:
- LinkedIn: Jason or Steve
- Website Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking
- Email: grow@rewireinc.com
Listen to the podcast here:
Angela Cheng-Cimini-Leadership is a First Principle
Hello and welcome everybody to this episode of The Insight Interviews. This is your host Jason Abell, and I tell you what,14 years ago, I, like many of you that are listening, read a Harvard Business Review article, and it's no small thing to say that it changed my life. The article that I'm referring to is an article by Clayton Christensen, and it was titled, “How will you measure your life?” And I will say this in my research for this particular guest, in this particular episode, I went back to that article, and I was reminded just how darn good and how much of an impact that it had on my life. There were things in that article talking about not just a strategy for your business, Jason, but a strategy for your life. There was this paragraph that was titled “The marginal cost of mistake”, and I would recommend everybody Google this article and read that particular paragraph. It's so good, and it was so impactful on my life, and I think that many of you that listen, being the leaders that you are, have come into contact some point in time over your life with Harvard Business Review articles. Well, Harvard Business Review articles is produced by an organization called Harvard Business Publishing, and today I have the honor of interviewing Harvard Business Publishing's Chief Human Resource Officer, Angela Cheng-Simini. Angela, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for having me. Jason. It's great to be here.
Angela, the world's collided in a way where you and I, on July 1, 2024 are together, but I want to go back. Oh gosh. I have all kinds of things that I want to do the very first question that we ask every episode, before I go back is, who or what as you and I engage one another today, who or what are you grateful for?
My family. They've seen the best; they've seen the worst. They believe there's something even better to come, and their faith and optimism in me is a deep, well. And you know, we're human, and as I get older, I appreciate that you just never know what's going to happen next. So, keep the ones that are near to you, dear to you.
I so appreciate that. We've asked that question, Angela, over 200 times, and we even do an episode around Thanksgiving, where we do a compilation of that year's answers of guests, and I have a feeling what you just said is going to make that episode. So, thank you for that. Now, I do want to go back. There was a day where you weren't the Chief Human Resource Officer for Harvard Business Publishing. So, take me back. Where were you born and raised? Like, what was your childhood like? For people that don't know Angela yet, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Oh, my goodness. Okay, so I am the only child of immigrant parents from Taiwan. I was supposed to be born a boy, so they only had a boy's name picked out for me, because, you know, in Chinese history, patriarchy is king and they were hoping for a son to carry on the name. So, for a few days I didn't have a name, but my father was very progressive and endowed me with all his hopes and dreams, as he would, you know, even though I was a girl, but very much the product of, you know, the model minority myth and the tiger dad, who had very high expectations. He, in fact, chose my college major, chose my university. He didn't choose it for me, he found it for me. He found it for me. Said that Cornell University is where you ought to go, and he was right. I fell in love with the HR curriculum, studied it as an undergraduate, and have not looked back. Met my husband, who's my college sweetheart there. We have two beautiful human adult children. One of whom also went to Cornell, and he met his wife there, and our daughter promptly ran the other way and went to Tulane in New Orleans. But I think what's brought me here is a lifelong journey of so much doubt, balanced by bursts of just extreme confidence, that I've learned to sort of understand the roles that both of those energies play in my life.
Well, even from that answer, and thank you for that, I don't think you have looked back. I mean, in my research, I found that you sit on the Alumni Board of Directors of Cornell. So not only did you go there, but now you're on the Alumni Board of Directors. You're an advisor to Sempervirens, which is a venture fund that invests in tech startups, helping to reshape healthcare, wealth and work and there are things you know, you were recently named to CNBC workforce Executive Council. I mean, when you say you haven't looked back, like, that's no joke. You really haven't looked back. And I only give all of those kind of stats for you so that you, the listener, can hear like, okay, who is this person that I'm listening to? There's a lot of street cred there and again, what is it maybe some things in your background, like what you said about your dad and your parents, like you didn't just go into Cornell and do some HR classes and then go on to something else, like that whole not looking back thing, not everybody does what you did. What is it about you that had you do and are experiencing the life that you're experiencing right now?
"I think, when you're when you're taught to just constantly grind away and work for your success, you take nothing for granted."
There's an insecurity that drives you towards success, and I am really proud of where I am, and feel an obligation, personally and morally, to start paying it forward by paying it back. So, I'm also active in the Asian American Pacific Islander community. I do a lot of impromptu mentoring, Jason. I wouldn't call it executive coaching, but people will find me, for example, on LinkedIn. They'll read something I posted, or hear about me through networks, and just want to spend some time with me, understanding my journey, and I'm really happy to spend the time doing that, because I didn't see a lot of leaders who looked like me when I was coming up through the ranks, and you can't be what you can't see. And so, I'm happy to make that possible in whatever small way I can.
Would you mind expanding on that a little bit? You just kind of quoted sometimes what I call a tweetable, “you can't be what you can't see”, and that's not something that I hear often, but I'm thinking that you do, just based on the way that you said it. Could you just talk about that a little bit more? I feel like we would benefit from your knowledge there.
Yeah. I mean, I didn't see any Asian leaders in the executive ranks, and as it turns out, Jason, only 1% of the C suite is made up of Asian women. And we know that organizations can be stacked with Asians, sort of at the front line, but we hit what's called a bamboo ceiling, and we very rarely break through. So now that I am in this position, I feel like it's important to show that it's possible for others. You know, I won't go so far as to say role model, because that seems really, that seems really high and lofty, but you know, to show that it's possible and that people can, if that's if that's what they choose, they can get here, and perhaps I can share some of my experiences and wisdom so that it's a little bit easier for them.
Your humility shines through. I'll use the word role model. I mean from the different things that you're doing, Angela, you're a role model.
Thank you.
I hate to tell you here, but you are. And so, with some of the different work that you're doing, like, I know with the venture fund that you're working on, and maybe some of what you do with the Cornell Alumni Board of Directors, what does that look like when you say paying it forward and mentoring? Like, specifically, what does that look like for you these days?
One of the most valuable things I have in my tool belt is my time. So, I try and give as much of that outside of my day job as I can. And so, I do sit on a number of boards and advisory capacities, and I try to volunteer, I try to teach as much as I can. I enjoy it also. That's probably the thing I miss the most about being virtual and remote is just being with a live audience, if you will. I did high school theater, right? And the immediate response when you get when a joke goes or falls, right? Like, I mean, it's really visceral, and you miss that, when you have a when you have a medium in between.
Sure, sure.
When I can, I get out and I teach and facilitate in person. I'll be heading to Las Vegas, actually, to go to a conference for a sun leadership It is the largest pan Asian professional network in North America, and I'll be teaching a Harvard Business Review case study, actually.
Hey, there you go. Nice, nice.
Yeah, yeah.
So, the curiosity in me, this isn't part of the isn't part of the format, but what's the what's the case study? Can you give us a quick little preview?
Yeah, so I wanted to choose an Asian protagonist, and it's featuring Andrea Young, who was the CEO of Avon at the time, and she had to make some difficult organizational decisions, and how did she use her values and how did she bring others along the way is the test?
Ooh, all right, I might look for that video once you do it. Or I don't know if it's going to be public or not, but that sounds, I feel like I just got, like, the trailer to the main show. Okay. When we book our guests, we have our guests fill out some information, just one headshot, and then there's also a few questions that we ask and your answer to our question around just leadership. So just some of your thoughts on leadership. I need to read it, and then I think that's just going to provide a backdrop for some of the rest of our conversation. So, here's what you wrote. “I think leadership sometimes, we often overcomplicate leadership, regardless of the backdrop, the essence of it is to provide clear direction and consistent support, remove obstacles and then get out of the way. Leaders, I don't always have the answers, and real organizational strength can be unlocked when we listen to the people doing the work. I'm pleased that contemporary leadership is more about compassion and vulnerability than authority and absolute expertise.” I’d just love to dig into some of those details. You dive in where you feel fit after hearing that.
Yeah, I feel like, especially in the discipline of human resources, leadership has finally caught up to what I've always personally believed in, is that if you just hire the right people, you make sure that you remove robots and give them support and let them do their thing, right? You know, for so long, we operated command and control in a hierarchy and top down, and now organizations are actually recognizing that that is not the only model of leadership. And so, it's incredibly liberating and validating to know that what I believe to be right about leadership is actually proving to be true.
So, I have this moment often when I'm interviewing people, and so people that have listened will hear a very similar question here, which is, I'm listening to you, Angela, and I'm even nodding my head, going yeah, because I will say this. There's a little bit of a groundswell, if you will. Many of our guests have touched on just what you just touched on from different angles, but it's there of, hey, hire the best people, get out of their way. Hire for your weaknesses and delegate properly. Like there's been different angles of just what you said. So, here me as the host, I'm nodding my head, going, yep, I subscribe to that theory, sure. Sometimes the devil's in the details, though, and so I'd love to scratch under the surface of some of what you just said there, and do you have either a story or an experience or maybe something within Harvard Business publishing, where you've just seen kind of what you just described, of hiring the right people and letting them fly, so to speak? Those are my words, but anything come to mind when I ask a little bit deeper question about that?
Yeah, I'll give an example from the organization I was with previously, and team members, we were applying for a training grant, and we missed a line. We should have put in a number, and instead, we put in zero. And so, we undervalued the application, and she felt terrible because I had given her the grant to run, to write. She'd never done it before. It was her first time, and while I was sort of there on the sides coaching it, we both missed it, and she beat herself up terribly about it, and I said, it's fine. We learned, and next year, we'll get it right, and we'll probably get even more money, and we're just going to move on. And she found that forgiveness so astonishing. And you know what? She repaid me the next year. I mean, because she made sure it was right, and she did better, and I was able to restore her confidence there wasn't any baggage about it, and she was just able to move on and, like, take it as a learning opportunity, which is really what we want all people to do with their mistakes, right? Instead of beat themselves up and, you know, sort of focus on that forever, take what you can from that experience and then get on with it.
And move on. Yeah, so good, so good. As the head of HR for an organization like yours, I'm assuming you, you've experienced a lot. You've seen, I'm using air quotes here, a lot, and what I mean by that is as like at Rewire, we engage a lot of HR folks, and what I see a lot of is burnout, over commitment, HR folks coming into the industry wanting to help people doing things like what you've described so far during this conversation, but then finding themselves caught up in just a ton of minutia and reporting and things like that. So, how would you speak into that? Like what I just see in corporate America, I see HR folks’ kind of a little frazzled. I'm not experiencing you that way right now. So how would you, I don't know, how would you speak into that?
Well, you know the metaphor of the duck, right? Like a swan, right? Maybe not quite that bad. I mean, I will tell you certainly that technology and automation has done lots right to get rid of all that drudgery. And there's an expectation, I think, in any role, whether it's HR, Finance or sales, that the balance has to be right. There's probably never going to be zero drudgery. But so long as the work that the majority of the work that you're doing is energizing and challenging and works your brain, then it's okay, right? And for me, that's sort of 70/30, because HR is just rife with some administrative stuff, right? That right now we haven't found a way to completely get rid of, but the 70% is the real value add. And one of the things Jason, I would love to see a shift in the conversation to your point about burnout, is we hear so much about doing more with less, and I'd actually propose that we do less with less. Which is not to say that we get lazy, but that we find the two or three things that really, really matter, and focus on that. Because we're not going to get more hands, we're not going to get more time, we're not going to get more budget. So, work on the things that really move the needle and let the other stuff fall away. Or, you know, just don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough. And I'm finding that if you really double down on the significant things, for example, that really tie true organization strategic objectives, or really tap into people's heart and soul, that's going to make the other stuff so much easier to take care of.
Okay, I'm going to ask you permission before I do this. Can I push back a little bit?
Yeah, please do.
So, even more head nodding from me, right? Gosh, I've read books on this. Like, you know, first things first, the one right thing, give your best to your best, like, any kind of different versions of this. So, I hear you. Back to your duck comment before, and shucks, I fall into this, some trap sometimes, too, where I'm like, frazzled, you know, some days and I'm like, I know about doing less with less. I know what Angela's talking about, but yet I just find it hard to actually do it. And I see organizations where the HR person might go, sure, Angela, come on, you don't know my life. Like what? How in the world? So, give me some more tangibility to go off of, I love what it is, but I'm in we'll play pretend here. I'm an HR person who's like, yeah, I hear that, and there's no way. You don't know my life. Like, speak into that a little bit.
"You literally cannot do it all, which means that something either will get done very, very poorly or just not get done. So, let's just be intentional about what the not get done looks like, and literally just say, yeah, all these choices are rotten, but this is the least rotten of them."
So that one? We're just gonna punt. We're just not gonna think about it, because you literally can't do it all. There is no way. So, something is going to fall off. So let it be your choice what falls off. My team and I are constantly going back and forth and thinking about what has to get done, what should we get right, the quadrant of what's urgent and important, what's not urgent not important. We're testing that routinely, and sometimes there are going to be things that are urgent and important. There's a lot of things in that box, but even then, you have to triage, and they're not always going to be great choices. And so, I manage that with my stakeholders, i.e. my bosses, and I will be like, this is what's on the docket, you help me decide what's important. I think I've got a viewpoint on what is, and when we sort it out, I find that there's increasing grace with all of that as well. And I think the conversations about mental health, the conversations about work life balance, have become increasingly more normalized. And I have certainly taught myself to learn how to say no, like I can’t. I will, but not right now. And in fact, Jason, one of the things that I have empowered my team to do is I've given them no cards, and I've given them five, and I actually want them to play them. Like, they're obligated. Because sometimes I get a little over ambitious, so I want to give them a tool where they can hold it up, with no judgment, shame or fear, to say, yeah, Angela, I'm playing the no card. You've already asked me three things this week. This one's just not happening.
Okay. This is good. This is what I was looking for. So, I am a very linear thinking logistical like, I want to dive into the no card details, like, to a kindergarten degree. So, tell me, how did that come about and exactly like, how does that work? The whole five no cards?
Well, five was, was sort of random, but it came up in a conversation like this where, like, we've just got so much going on and it was actually one person on my team was like, okay, Angela, yes, that sounds exciting and important, but you have asked me to do three other things that are also exciting important. And so, it was a check on me, right? And so, I'm like, okay, well, I need a way for my team to help me govern me, because I'm not always aware of the speed that I'm going at. So, I want to equip them with something that's easy to deploy, and actually, funny enough, one the team members said, how about not a no car, but not now card?
That's good. Okay, like, the solution orientation of that.
Right? They don't want to disappoint, they want to do it, they want to get to it. Like, how about not now? I'm like, okay, not now is acceptable as well. That is a good answer. So yeah. And to be fair, I haven't had very many that have been invoked, But, you know, we're at the halfway point of the year, so I'm gonna wait.
Well, they will be now after they listen to this.
That's right, that's right.
No, I like that. The no cards, yeah. I think I don't want my staff to listen to this episode. Actually, I say that kiddingly. Steph on our team, she's really great about, you know, because we do, same as you, we come up with these crazy ideas. We're like, not only is this a great idea, but we'd like it to be done by five today, you know? Or, you know, Friday, or whatever. It's like, that's great, and we don't have the no card thing, but she's like, awesome, no problem. I got you. What on this list do you want me to replace what you just came up with? And then I'm like, I know. So that's, that's the Rewire version of the no card. So that was great- the no card. Anything else like that? That little tangible, either tricks or things for, and now I'm expanding it out, not just people in HR, but I see it in the C suite. I see it everywhere. I see the CFO has similar issues, the COO for sure, because they just seem to be involved in some day-to-day things, and so anything else besides the no card that you would say, hey, executive, this may be a way for you to just lead better? You know, going back to what I read what you said about leadership, getting out of people's way, letting them fly. Anything else come to mind?
I think the power of the question, how are you, is vastly underutilized, right? We get into our one on ones, and we want to go right to the task list and check off the boxes and get a status update and I think we overlook the value of just, not just the cursory, how is your weekend, but really, how are you? You know, in particular, in my role, I support CEOs and co-presidents, and that's a lonely job, and so I make sure that I take time to ask them, like, how did you feel about that board meeting? You know, I was reading your body language and in that call something seemed off. How are you? And give them an opportunity and an outlet to just sort of process in the moment. It's one of the pieces of my work that I am trying to stay emotionally connected, but not emotionally involved, right?
Talk more about that, because that was actually the direction of my next question, based on what you're saying. So, tell me more about that.
Yeah, right. I mean, I would not be a good social worker, because I think I would bring that whole caseload home with me, so there has to be a little bit of distance. Because for me personally, I would emotionally process all of that stuff with the person in real time, and that's not helpful, and it's not healthy, but I think for executives, that there's not enough caretaking. And so I see that absolutely as part of the remit of the function. But even just colleague to colleague, even if I wasn't in HR, just say, how are you really? And you can unpack so much stuff with that simple three word question.
Again, a little bit to the next level there.=, how do you ask that question? The way that I feel it right now, from you, like you mean this. This isn't a nice thing to say, you mean that. And then, gosh, there's so many directions that that can go. That's not what you're looking for, which is, yeah, yeah, come on, let's just do this versus Oh, okay. And two hours later, you're like, wow, we have these things to do. So tell me a little bit more about the just the specifics, the logistics of of how you do that. I'm assuming it probably depends on some personalities of your stakeholders, but just tell me a little bit more about that.
It definitely depends. I mean, it can absolutely be a risky play, right? Because you might have someone who divulges too much or for too long, but ultimately, I don't think it's ever served me poorly to just seek to understand where the other person's head is at. What's your energy? Are you present? How are you feeling? What gave you energy? What drained you this week? Those are all really good probing questions, but you should only ask them if you're really interested in the answer, because then you've completely devalued the point of the question in the first place.
Talk more about that. Only ask it, if you're really interested in the answer. I want to hear what Angela has to say about that.
So, I try to practice a lot of active listening. I recently went out to dinner with a friend, and after I got home, I said, you know, I'm so sorry for talking your ear off. And she said, oh my goodness, you talked just the right amount. She's like you probably thought you talked too much because at work, you do all the listening, which I thought was really insightful, because I'm always really trying not to run the table with conversation.
So I think what you're saying brings to mind some of my best interactions as an executive coach has not been during the coaching session, but as I'll review the coaching session, maybe that afternoon in my head, or the next morning, as I'm kind of thinking about or meditating on that client, and I'll text the client, saying, hey, there was something off about what you said. Or do you mind if we dig a little deeper into this because of body language or something like that, and that has produced some of the best conversations where just picketed a little bit, and then it's like, boom, and now we've got an opportunity for a breakthrough or for something different to happen. So yeah, thanks for giving that example, as my dog serenaded you there. Oh, so good. Any particular projects that you're working on these days that are particularly exciting to you or give you energy that that you wouldn't mind letting our listeners in on?
Yeah, so actually, we're going to be embarking on the first comprehensive workforce strategy planning effort, I think ever, at Harvard Business Publishing, and what that really is, is an attempt scan the organizational landscape, anticipate and forecast talent needs, and then put in place a strategy or a plan to mitigate any risks or to take advantage of opportunities. So, what are the skills we're going to need in the future? For example, Gen AI, data, literacy, digital intelligence, right? Those are things that we haven't invested in historically in the publishing business. And so suddenly, we're under an existential threat, because people can get all sorts of information for free, and in fact, some of our content is out there for free. So how do we maintain the value of the brand, because we're also, you know, we're a premium brand. We're not the 99 cent Star Magazine on the on the grocery shelf. And so, okay, once we understand what we need, how much of it do we have in house, and to the extent that we have gaps, how do we fill that? Do we buy it? Do we borrow it? Do we build it? Do we try and go without? And then whatever that is, then we have to go execute it. So, I'm actually really looking forward to getting deep into the organization, understand what our business leaders think are our talent challenges, testing the value proposition of our brand, making sure that people want to come work for Harvard Business publishing, and that talent stays and performs and is productive.
What's interesting to me about the way that you answered that is, as I listened to you lay out the challenge, I was even thinking, oh, that sounds hard. Like in the back of my I'm like, oh, like, not good at all. And then to hear your energy about, yeah, we're going to dive right in, and we're going to talk to our stakeholders, and we're going to figure this out, and I'm excited about it, and there's going to be so many solutions, and we're going to get it right. I'm like, yeah, I want to come work for you. That is great. I can feel the energy there. Angela, our time has been so good and so rich. This is a wide-ranging question and I'm going to apologize in advance about it, but is there anything that I haven't asked you on the topic of leadership, or any of the wide-ranging topics that we've covered today that I haven't asked you, but you kind of wish I did?
No, I don't think so, Jason. I would just add only that leadership is a first principle. I don't think organizations can set out to do anything else they want to do, grab market share, flatten the bottom line, improve margins, get great customer feedback, unless they really invest in their people. And leaders have to know how to take care of them. They have to know how to ask the right questions. And again, I think we overcomplicate it. Just take care of people. It's the platinum role now. Treat people as they would like to be treated.
Yeah, yeah gold to platinum.
That's right.
That is so good, so good. I'm not going to end there. I want to make it abundantly clear, talk about the difference between the golden rule and what you just said, the platinum rule, because I think there's an important distinction there.
Yeah, the golden rule stands for do unto others as you would have done to yourself, right? But the platinum rule is meeting people where they are, so treat them the way they would like to be treated, and that's going to look vastly different based upon what you value. And that's a whole other thing we can get into, Jason.
I know.
I’ve been giving a lot of talks about hyper personalization.
Oh, well, if we're ever fortunate enough to have another conversation or maybe another recording session, that is something that, if we just didn't do a wide range of conversation and we stuck to that, ooh, I'd be excited about that. Yeah, really, very, very much into that idea. And it's really, for me, personally, it's a place that I'm shifting. I don't have that right, because I came up in an age where the golden rule was like, yeah, that is the way that you do it and thinking that I was doing the right thing there. And I think along my career, and I'll just speak for myself, I think I messed that up a few times, not knowing it, but I think I did, and that distinction that you just made about treating people that they need and want to be treated is very different and such an important distinction. So yeah, thanks for ending on that note. Angela, it has been a pleasure and an honor to interview you, and I mean that. Thank you for your time today. Like you said, you gave us your most valuable resource. We don't take that for granted. Best of luck with everything, and I hope our paths cross again soon.
I do too. Thanks so much for having me, Jason.
Boy, oh boy. I don't even know where to start, but I'll start where she started. One of the insights that I had from Angela was just her humble and graceful, quiet confidence when she said in the very beginning who she was grateful for; her family. Then, as she was coming up through the ranks, you can't be what you can't see and what she's doing to change that everything around the bamboo ceiling that she described. Then, when it got to leadership, man, she was just very succinct and very short and confident, and I felt like the impact of things that she was saying with we need to figure out a way to do less with less that literally for the burnt out HR executives, or executives in general, that you literally can't do it all. Learning how to say no, she had very specific ways to do that with her no cards and she hands those out to her direct reports. Power of the question, how are you? And then she just talked about that, seeking to understand, and then at the very end, the nuance of the difference between the golden rule and the platinum rule. So gosh, I just had a lot of insights, and I still need to wrestle with some of them, which I'll do. But as we end every episode of The Insight Interviews, doesn't much matter what me as the host what my insights were, but really what was important is, listeners, is what were your insights?
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