About Tom Durney: He has been a Mortgage Operations professional with over 20 years of experience, joining the industry after coming out of the Air Force. He started on the ground level and worked his way up to where he is today.
In this episode, Steve and Tom discuss:
- Build your own luck
- Progressing through tenacity
- The importance of culture
- What to do with luck
Key Takeaways:
- The harder you work, the luckier you get. You build your own luck through your decisions and actions.
- When you want to progress in your career, sometimes all you’ve got to do is keep your head down, chisel away at it, be tenacious and wait for the opportunity to come, because it will come and faster if you have proven yourself.
- The general culture of a company can make it or break it and the mindset has to come from the top. The bar has to be set by the leaders and communicated clearly across the organization.
- Recognizing the “luck” you received in your successes in life is a sign of humility. However, you’ve got to do something with this luck, you’ve got to use it as an opportunity to grow in your career or as a person.
“You have to network, you have to get to know people, get your foot in the door. But then once you get that foot in the door, it's all on you. And you've got to earn everything that you get.”
-Tom Durnry
Connect with Tom Durney:
Connect with Steve and Jason:
- LinkedIn: Jason or Steve
- Website Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking
- Email: grow@rewireinc.com
Listen to the podcast here:
Tom Durney- Tenacious Luck
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Insight Interviews. This is your host for the day, Steve Scanlon, and I got a really cool guest today. I say cool, but I think that's obviously going to be up to you all to hear how cool this guy is, but I'm actually really looking forward to it. So, before I go much further, I would like the Insight Interview world, our little podcast world, to say hi to Tom Durney. Tom, say hi to the Insight Interview world.
Hello, everybody.
There you go. That's Tom Durny. Well, I was thinking about this, Tom, and you and I actually talked, I don't know, it was it a couple of weeks ago, we had shared some thoughts together, and one of the things that I, again, I maybe have just come to appreciate this about other podcasts that we do is we weren't looking for the same kind of person that's some CEO or salesperson, you know, men, women, like we get all kinds, and you're one of those all kinds. And I'm just really looking forward to just a different perspective and a different view and a different voice and how you've come up through business, I just think is really, really unique, and I'm just excited to get excited to hear from you. What do you think about that?
Yeah, very cool. Very cool.
So well, let's dive in, Tom. I do have a little bit of a practice here at the beginning, just to kind of, I don't know, call it icebreaking. I don't know what people call it or whatever. But it's nice to hear, you know, especially as we kick off, it puts, I don't know, to me it sets the right mindset, but Tom, in your life, before we even dive into who you are, where you from, how'd you get to where you got or whatever, which we'll get there, before we do any of that, I'd love to hear what are you grateful for?
What am I grateful for? I guess, honestly, truly where I am today, personally and professionally. Probably one of the few people that's been able to get to where I am without a college degree, which was a stumbling block for sure early on in my career. And personally, I've got a great family- wife, two kids. So really grateful across the board on both fronts.
And is that, do you feel like are you the kind of person like do you think about those things often? How do I ask that? Are you a very grateful person? You strike me as such. Do you think of yourself as a grateful person?
I do. I probably more often consider myself a lucky person. You know, if I think back over the years, and some of the opportunities I've had, you know, things have just tend to fall into place, you know, without being greedy, you know, I'm not winning million dollar lotteries, or anything like that, but I've always found that when I have those tough times, and everybody does have those tough times, both personally and professionally, it just it works out. You just do the right things, you stick with it, and things tend to work out. So, I would say more lucky, is what I think about more often. But if I do take a step back, I'm certainly grateful too.
I forget which, someone someone's going to write into the show and tell me what it was it might have been Thomas Jefferson, or like Benjamin Franklin said something to the effect of the harder I work, the luckier I get.
That's maybe true. Maybe you build your own luck.
Well, maybe. I don't know if you want to comment on that. I mean, well, you've already said a couple things that are just you know, Tom, we all go through challenges, right? I mean, everyone has challenges in life.
No doubt.
And if I heard you right, things work out, like and then you use the word lucky. Did you? Is that how you would describe that? How do you describe it to yourself? Or maybe even others? How has it worked out for you? How do you describe that?
So, you know, I think I mentioned when we when we spoke a couple of weeks ago, just where I started out, you know, honestly, I wanted to be a cop. That was what I went to school for briefly. I joined the military to get the experience and that was my plan. I was going to come out of the military, or I was going to be a cop. The military did teach me one important lesson and that was that I wasn't a big fan of shiftwork, but still was trying to pursue that and you know, starting to run out of leave time and needed something. You know, a steppingstone, just something to pay, pay the bills until I got this, this cop job, so called my brother, he was in the business and I said, look, I just I need something. So, he got me lined up with it with an interview in the mailroom at a big local mortgage company. I went I interviewed, I actually did not get that job, but I got another opportunity within the same company, literally, like faxing orders all day. And, you know, everybody was doing the same thing. It was a little difficult to really shine in that environment, you're just, you know, pumping in faxes, but I met the right people. You know, did the right things kept, kept the positive attitude, and then an opportunity came up, but they were going to start to pilot a home equity program, and they thought we don't need seasoned people for this, we can we can use some folks that are green, so, they asked if I wanted to do it.
Sure. Sure.
So, I, you know, started processing home equity loans back in, probably 2000, something like that, and just chiseled away, you know. Just kept my head down, did the right things, and opportunities just sort of presented themselves. And so, I do look back, and I think, okay, I was lucky for that opportunity. Because like I said, you know, without a college degree, I think, especially early in a career before you've established and proven yourself, that is the sort of thing you think about, you know, hey, you know, a management positions coming up, and every time they announced a new manager, they're talking about where they got their degree from, and, you know, so that must be important. So, the fact is, though, you just work hard, you know, you can't. You're not making, it's not leaps and bounds. It’s baby steps at times, but you just stick with it, do the right things. And the opportunities will be there.
You know, you're saying some of these things, I'm trying to take notes as feverishly as I can. I like the idea of chiseled away, like maybe, again, Tom, it's not for me to tell your story for you, or anything like that, but this idea that you're sharing some of these concepts with us of like, you know, I kept my head down, I wrote down things like hard work and tenacity. You stayed with it. Like you're just sharing those things like, well, of course. Like you do understand like the world could totally benefit, maybe all of us could benefit by looking at some of those concepts that seems like you almost just did, like, yeah, that's you do. And I'm like, you know, Tom, a lot of people, maybe that's not always the way the world you get that, right?
Yes, yes, I was never one of those ones that aspired to be a manager, a director of VP and SVP, you know, those things just happened over time. Now, I will say that there was, it was certainly, you know, in this career field, in the mortgage career field, loan processing, which is what I consider myself at the end of the day, regardless of my title, where I've gone in my career, I consider myself a processor. That's my background. That's sort of my passion. But it's a tough job, and it's not impossible to get burnt out. So, I would say my first foray into management really was because I couldn't deal with the daily grind of processing anymore. So, I focused my energy a little bit on trying to take that next step. And, again, got an opportunity.
"And I think once you get that opportunity, things like school, make less and less of a difference and your personal work ethic, the job you do, just the little things, communication, those are the things that are going to start to propel you up."
I'm just sitting here going again, um, you got an opportunity. It doesn't seem like I mean, again, I'm not going to put words in your mouth. You didn't just get an opportunity. You worked hard. You chisel. Again, I don't want to tell your story for you, but I'm trying to have a-
Yeah, no, I mean, look, I don't want to say that, you know, everything from luck was just handed to me. I do realize I earned everything that I got, and nothing was handed to me. You know, again, earlier in my career, I, I was the guy that was like, well, I, you know, I don't want to call my brother and have my brother help me get a job, you know, what will people think? Then I realized, you know, that’s how the world works. You know, you have to network, you have to get to know people, get your foot in the door. But then once you get that foot in the door, it's all on you, and you've got to earn everything that you get, nobody's going to give you anything.
Back to hard work, and tenacity. Well walk us through if you don't mind. Again, that mean I you come out of the military. I mean, you kind of whip through that pretty quickly. You've had some transitions in life, and today you are a leader, you are a manager and in your world, and so, I just love to hear about some of those transitions. Again, you said I got an opportunity and whatever but talk to talk to us a little bit about those transitions and what it's been like for you and maybe even where you are today.-4.png?width=340&height=260&name=Untitled%20design%20(1)-4.png)
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, like I said I, I was an entry level position and moved into, you know, processing position, worked hard at that and then transitioned over into primary mortgages. So, you know, first year two, when I really got my feet wet in the mortgage production piece of the business, it was second mortgages, then moved into first mortgages. There was some opportunity. I remember once I interviewed as a team lead, and I was at that point, I was very confident. You know, as a processor, I really was one of the top processors in the company that was doing really well, and I thought, you know, what, I'm, I'm a shoo in, I'll get this lead position, no problem. And again, I didn't get it. And I learned more from not getting that position at that point in my career than I probably would have learned had I had I gotten it. You know, the feedback was honest, and I took it to heart and you know, nobody likes to be turned down for an opportunity, but you just get what you can out of it, learn from it and apply it next time the chance comes around. So moved companies that built a pretty good relationship with the management I was working for at the time and a management position opened up, I applied for it and was lucky enough to get that role. Spent a few years doing that and they were going to relocate, so I was too far of a commute, so, I've looked for another opportunity went to a very small company probably learned more in at that company from an overall business perspective, because everybody did everything there was not compartmentalized, so took a step back to go there, built myself back up to a management position, then moved on to one of the big players in the country. Some management that I worked for, at the time, moved to a different company, I followed suit, new opportunities there, then eventually got out of the mainstream of loan production and got more into support and training and so forth, and in just working hard, having the opportunity to work for a company that grew very, very fast. And I had a little bit of experience with larger groups and managing those folks, so I was lucky enough to work for a company that was really open to listening to me and what I had to offer on a larger scale. And so, when I presented what I recommended as a good plan for their growth, they gave me another promotion and another opportunity. And again, just over time, I've landed where I am today as a Senior Vice President.
I'll be darned. Again, I'm looking at these connections. One thing you just said, I got to just - they listened. Isn't that interesting? Wouldn’t that be great for us to like, I don't know how many CEOs or CFOs or C suite people are out there listening to the Insight Interviews, or at least this one, but the power of listening, like they listened. They heard you and one that obviously presented an opportunity for you, but I don't know, would you say that their listening is something that's a trait of theirs that not only you appreciate, but probably even helps the organization?
Oh, 100% You know, I think just that general culture of any organization can make or break it, you know, and that type of mentality comes from the top down. And so, when the bar is set, to where, yep, we're going to be this type of company that listens to our people, we're going to recognize the folks that have the expertise, where they have it, and we're going to leverage that from them, everybody becomes successful. Now, that doesn't mean every recommendation I made was accepted. But like I said, they listen, and there's discussion back and forth and, you know, we come to a mutual agreement on whether or not say something's going to be implemented or, you know, a process change that sort of thing, where you work at another company, and they're just like, who is this guy? we do things our way and he can fall in line and just, you know, do it our way or move on.
You know, my colleague Stephanie sometimes helps me title these things, and on a couple of occasions, you have mentioned like even back to the mailroom you didn't get the job.
Right.
And there was another opportunity that you had to become a processor wherever you were, you didn't get that job.
Right.
And then I think you made some comment about you know, not getting that job taught you more it just makes me want to slow down and go, are you a guy that handles criticism fairly well? Like you not getting jobs seem to kind of fuel you. And I was just sort of curious, what about those things, because especially like where you look where you are, it seems like some of those things fueled you to get better. Do you mind me asking why didn't you get those jobs and what did you have to learn about you? Because you said that wasn’t easy or whatever. What did you learn about you that you went out and therefore worked on? What was it that you needed to learn about you, Tom?
So going back to you not getting these positions and so forth, and you know, accepting criticism, one, nobody loves to be criticized. You know, I wish I had all the answers to the point where there's perfect answers, no need for criticism. But that's not reality.
Right.
So, you make a choice, you know, you either get defensive, you know, you feel like, they're wrong, you're right. That's how it is. Or you take a step back, try to separate yourself from it, and really think about, you know, what merit is there to their criticism? And I think most people, if they're honest with themselves will find that, yeah, that's probably good feedback. You know, the first interview that I had, like I said, in the mailroom, little things. Like I showed up without a copy of my resume. I didn't know any, you know, I was a young kid, I knew I had sent them a copy, but it never dawned on me, like, always bring a copy of your resume, you know? And that was, that was some criticism I got from the gentleman that I had interviewed with. I think we just, we just didn't click, I think. And so that was a big piece of the advice I took from that. Always bring the resume. Yeah. The second time where I felt, like I said, pretty confident, the feedback I got, honestly was that I came across overconfident, probably borderline cocky at that point in my career, and you know, good, and I could have gotten defensive and just say, who's this guy think he is? Blah, blah, blah. But the truth is, that was the feedback. These are the hiring managers. And this is, what they saw their perception is, is the reality. And if I'm being honest, I probably was a little bit cocky, because I felt like, you know, being the best, one of the best processors at the company, that I deserved, and they should have just given me that opportunity. So always think back, and to this day, if I'm going to interview for a position, I still think about that feedback I got, you know, 18-20 years ago.
So well, you know, I wrote down a word and I'm reticent to even bring the word up, and that is humility. Right? Again, if we were, you know, you and I just talking here like that, I guess, you know, humility is the opposite of cocky, right? Wouldn't you say that?
Correct. Of cockiness, maybe.
Yeah, but you don't want to come and go, oh, I worked on my humility, like, I hope. Right? Like, no one wants to say that per se, but you know, nobody wants to come and say, I’m Tom, like, humility is one of my strong suits. You can't say that. Because the minute you do, it's like, nah.
That's right. That's right. Yeah. But the truth is, you know, humility is born from those moments. And, you know, I did have to take a step back and self-reflect, and realize, okay, you know, maybe I'm not the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I have to have better answers and just go in there and think they're gonna look at my numbers and hand me something.
Well, when you say, I did have to take a step back, again, I daresay, I don't think you had to. The fact that you did, and heard that feedback, and actually considered it, and you've done that now, on a few occasions, I kind of want to say that's probably today why you're a senior vice president.
Well, and it happens all the time. You know, it's not just during the job interview process, you know, provided feedback about things that I do all the time. And always, you know, try to look at the positives in it. I'm lucky enough, obviously, to work with folks that that aren't coming at me real negative, it's generally presented in the right way, and you're right, maybe I don't have to accept that, but I choose to. And I find that it's brought me a bit of success.
I would think so. Well, these are the same people that are listening to you, right? They listened to you and then actually heard what you said, right? These the same group of people you're talking about?
That is right. Yep.
Yeah. And now you're actually a part of that, because you're on the you're in leadership at this organization. So, yeah.
Yeah. And, you know, I really feel like my voice is heard, which, which I appreciate. And, you know, it's those little things that keep people at a company, you know? It’s not the money. It’s not the position, it's the people around you. It's how you're treated. And so that's why I'm where I am today, but it's also the reason why, you know, I treat the folks on the team I work with the same way. You know, there's certainly a hierarchy, we all have different responsibilities, but we're in it together. One team, you know, if I showed up at work tomorrow, and they said, look, we need you to sweep the floors. Okay, where's the broom? No problem. It's just, it's just the mentality.
I wonder, do you think that mentality can be taught, or do you think people just kind of carry with them that mentality?
I think it can be taught temporary. I think that, you know, people, if they, if they go through those same motions, they'll see this a similar result, but if that's not part of who they are, in my opinion, if that's not part of the fabric that they're made from, it's temporary. I don't think it's sustainable over a long period of time.
So, would you argue that, like, if you're hiring people, you probably do that now, but if you're bringing people on, do your best to find that trait? Because teaching it if even if you can, it's temporary? Like finding the trait of I mean, you're talking again, humility, hard work, treating other people fairly listing well, like these are, again, to you, they might just seem like, yeah, duh. Like, look around the world. I mean, I hate to be so cynical, but there's a lot of organizations that don't carry with them some of these things. You get that, right?
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's difficult to glean that information from talking to somebody over the course of, say, an hour interview, or however long it might be, so, you really do have to use your judgment and get to know them a little bit. When I'm talking to somebody about a job opportunity, I'm interviewing them, it's very conversational. I don't ask a lot of the “give me an example of where you had a difficult customer.” I mean, everybody's got a few of those in the can ready to go, so you know, I don't know if I'm gonna really get anything out of asking those stereotypical questions during the interview process, so, I'll just talk to them. And just, you know, try to get a feel for that personality, because I would rather have somebody who's got the right personality, with maybe less technical skills than somebody who's off the charts with, you know, that technical aspect. The technical may or may not-
Might not have the right personality.
Exactly, exactly. Right. So, it's a fine balance.
Yeah. Well, again, now I’m forgetting all my fancy gurus who say, was it Thurgood Marshall? I can't even remember who it was now, somebody said something. Again, I'm gonna get corrected on this. Somebody's gonna write into the show and say that. But there's a saying that says culture eats strategy for breakfast. In other words, you can have all the technical stuff in the world, but if we don't create a culture in which people like listening to you, you sound like not only are you in a culture, where people listen to whatever, and is it perfect, no. We get it. It's not perfect, but you sound like you're in that culture. It also sounds like who you are, Tom, is helping foster and nurture and curate that culture. You're actually doing this to other people, right, as it was done unto you. And that's what makes our culture.
Absolutely. That's the plan.
Yeah. Well, and again, this is gonna be almost a trite thing to ask you, but that stuff, like you said, it's not about money. How important is culture? What would you say?
It's probably, for me personally, the most important. You know, I've worked for quite a few companies over my career, several years, a handful of them, and I, you know, I felt like, when I got to where I am today, I kicked myself a little bit. I think, oh, geez, why didn't I make this move five years ago, or even 10 years ago, you know? And then I do stop, and I think, you know, what if you had done that. Things could be so different, and maybe not for the better. So, I'm appreciative of all the experience that I've had, and all the companies I've worked for. But, you know, my last move was purely for culture. I was at a company that treated me well, and you know, a good position and did fine financially, but for me, I just needed a different culture. So, I was proactive and reached out to the folks that I'm working for today and was lucky enough to have them give me an opportunity.
There we go. Again, maybe we'll just call the whole thing Lucky. Lucky, but again, I had people might interpret that word differently. I listened to you and go, you might feel lucky, which again, there's a humility to that, that's great. You've made some decisions in who you are, and it’s brought you some luck, right? I mean, I guess you could think of yourself as lucky but I, I don't know, I listened to you, and I go, this is what hard works and putting your head down and chiseling away and listening to others and following people who listen. And there's a certain humility again, I wish we could call it how to be humble with by Tom Durny, but I think we would miss the point with that. But I certainly hear that. And by the way, I think it takes a tremendous amount of humility to learn from criticism, just period.
You hope most people do and maybe they don't admit it, but I think at the end of the day, over time, once that initial sting wears off, things I think, hopefully settle in and you can learn a little bit of something from that criticism.
If today, if there were one characteristic from a leadership perspective in mortgage, and I know there's many, but if you had to pick one characteristic from a leadership perspective, whether it's your leadership, or the people that lead your company, if there was one critical one in our, the season we're going through right now in mortgage banking, from your chair, Tom, what would you say would be the most one of the most critical, crucial characteristics of leadership someone could possess today?
Oh, that's a good question.
"Flexibility is important. You know, in this environment, you know, you get, well, let's go back a year in that environment. Everybody knew exactly what had to be done, you know, you came in and your day was structured, there was enough work there, where you were going to probably leave at the end of the night with enough work to fill your next day. You know, and then we get into times like this, and it's a little bit different. You know, maybe there's not quite as much work as there was that is structured. There are always things that you can do, there's always ways to spend your time so that you're being productive, even if it's not what you were, say, used to a year ago. So, people being flexible enough to kind of take a step back and say, okay, you know, here's my job responsibilities from A to Z. Well, I don't have enough in there to fill my eight-hour day. So, what am I going to do with this extra time? And whether that's, you know, plying themselves to take some extra training or, you know, revisiting some processes to make improvements, take advantage of that time, be flexible about it."
And, you know, it's a tough environment out there across the board, and people are nervous. And so, they should, I know, I do all the right things that I can think of, to keep myself a viable member of the team. And so, I don't know if flexibility is the right word, but that's sort of that ability to shift gears with the market, and continue to do the right things, even if they're different things.
Well, I don't know if it's the right word either, but again, you're giving us all kinds of opportunities for titles of our little episode here. So, I think it's a great word. Flexibility. People's, you know, unwillingness to change even when things change around them, people get rigid, right? That's sort of the opposite of flexibility and rigidity.
Yeah, yeah.
Rigidity is probably never a good thing, but I really liked that you pointed that out today. But again, I'm always hoping in the Insight Interviews that the people listening, they wouldn't just go, oh, really cool idea, Tom, but rather ask themselves whoa, am I practicing flexibility? Am I asking some different questions, because that's kind of what we always hope happens in these. So, thank you so much. Like I always say it doesn't really matter what Tom's insights were and mine are, if any. It really matters what yours are as the listener. So, as you listen to Tom, and I hope you get to go listen to this again. I hope it creates in you the listeners some really great questions for yourself. So, Tom, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you, Steve. Have a great day.
We'll see y'all next time here on the Insight Interviews.
---
Thanks for reading. If you got any value at all from this episode, a little nugget all the way up to some big huge insight, please do us a solid by subscribing, recommending, rating, and reviewing us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or Google. That stuff matters to us, and it allows us to continue interviewing more awesome people.
Important Links
- Website: www.crosscountrymortgage.com
- Email: tom.durney@gmail.com
- Apple Podcast – The Insight Interviews
- Spotify – The Insight Interviews
- Google – The Insight Interviews
- LinkedIn: Jason or Steve
- Grow@RewireInc.com
