Are you tired of following generic advice to increase curiosity but still not seeing any growth or success in your life? Have you been told to simply be more curious without any concrete guidance? Join Steve and Jason in this episode, where they will uncover the true significance of curiosity in personal growth and provide practical techniques to practice "being a six." By cultivating your curiosity and being willing to move from a 10 to a 6, you may open yourselves up to new possibilities.
"I don't know if we could be the most interesting person in the world, but we can strive to be the most interested person in the world." – Steve Scanlon.
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Steve, we are going to dive in pretty quickly. We have a topic that 1) We are excited about, but 2) Even though it's fresh, it is something that we have seen be very helpful to clients very quickly. We are continuing to hear back from people doing that thing that you taught in that workshop. That's been helpful to me. Anytime we hear that feedback, specifically after people have gone and practiced a few things and then given us feedback, we usually pay attention to that. I'm excited to talk about it.
We have done that. Our show isn't always topical. A lot of times, we are bringing on guests. It ends up being topical because of the topics they bring. This one is very specifically top topical, as is the episode I did with Jack Bevilacqua. If you are reading, you may want to read that one on Sacred Space because I thought his ability to articulate that topically was good. We can't go down that road because next thing you know, we are going to be coming up with all kinds of different episodes we want people to read. The whole episode will be about you and I telling other people to go to different episodes.
What I like about what you did there is we are not very intentional about promoting things on our show, but what you did there was organically promote another episode of our show. Well done. That was good.
It brought it to my mind because I interviewed Jack Bevilacqua on Sacred Space, which was very topical. I hope a lot of people get to read that.
This particular topic is one that when I first started coming up as a young mortgage banker or when I started a family and started parenting type of things and even in leadership, it's this idea keeps on coming back, this idea of curiosity. You have got a cool, unique spin on it. How do we start? Do we start with your story? Do we start with the topic? Kick us off here, Steve.
How do we start? Isn't that a great question? I was hoping that was a hypothetical one and one that you would answer. It starts with curiosity. I appreciate you saying that. It comes up quite a bit in coaching, but it comes up in the context of people wanting to grow. Grow as a leader, grow relationally, and grow as a human being. One of the topics that seems to be a great developmental topic for us as coaches and it ends up translating for a lot of our clients is this idea of remaining or cultivating curiosity. Remaining curious. It sounds like, “Yeah, just go do that.” It's one of those soft skills. Wouldn't you say so?
For sure. The one thing that already strikes me, even before you dive deeper in, is this idea of wanting to develop and wanting to grow. That's almost a precursor to the topic that we are about to talk about. I rest on that particular statement because we find that the people who end up coming to us as clients, who hire us in workshops, who even read this show are already predisposed to like, “There's a gap from where I am now and where I want to go and I want to get better.” This is one of those things that continues to come up for that population of people. Curiosity.
I love that you spoke about the gap. I woke up one morning and I thought about the gap, which is maddening. The sense that, yes, growth and development are good and they are good characteristics. There's always a piece of me that wants to be done. God, it's laborious.
Never. Not until we take our last breath.
Not to be cynical or whatever, but how many people adopt that philosophy? I wish more would and a lot do, but there's a remarkable amount of people that are like, “All this development and growth, can't you just live and not grow?” To be honest with you, a lot of people live like that. I'm grateful that a lot don't, too, and I don't, but I want to honor those people because it is laborious.
A lot of people may live otherwise. That's exactly right. People that we tend to engage and the people that read this show are the ones that are like, “No, I want to close that gap. I want to bridge that gap. I want to develop.” This episode is for you.
What we could do is we will do a quick meta-conversation. The conversation about the conversation. You had brought something up. Curiosity is a soft skill. What we are going to be talking about, so we don't bury the lead, is how one of the gaps that you would like to close is how you grow in curiosity. This is the topic that we are going to unfold here and throw out for you because it’s a soft skill.
I could hear us in coaching like if someone wants to develop in that way. I don't know. How do you say, “Just go be curious by Friday, and then let me know how that goes?” What's the action that we take around curiosity without it being so pedestrian and simple like, “Just go be curious?” How do you do that? How do you practice that?
It is a soft skill and you and I have said it often, whether it's the topic of like, “The person has the it factor or the vibe.” There are all kinds of different intangible ways to describe soft skills. I think what you are about to do is go, “Curiosity. Soft skill.” Here's some tangibility around that, which I love because then we can grasp onto something. I'm excited to hear what you have to say.
I will give one more fun little analogy. A lot of people know about the Dos Equis guy for all those years back. It was many years ago with the Dos Equis guys, that was the most interesting man in the world. I don't know that we any longer should be striving to be the most interesting person in the world. We should strive to be the most interested person in the world.
We should strive to be the most interested person in the world.
Imagine practicing that. “I'm going to go to a party and here's how I'm going to address what I'm going to say and I'm going to come off interesting. I'm going to tell my story.” That's okay. Where's the curiosity? If we are so dedicated to being the most interesting person in the world, as opposed to maybe thinking about how we can become the most interested, not interesting.
If we are the most interested, then we can ask questions and we can ask questions about questions. I do think curiosity is something we can curate and foster. I want to talk about that. The most interested people in the world don't think that won't help you in sales or won't help you in your leadership. Let's figure out how to become more interested and maybe dedicate less energy to being more interesting. What do you think about that?
You are already bringing topics that we, meaning you and I, have developed as coaches and as we have gone on our journey and gotten different certifications, classes, and different things that we go to. The best of the best coaches in the world are ones that make themselves almost invisible in a coaching session where there's not much at all that the coach is saying about them. The more questions that they ask, the more interested they are in a particular gap or a particular topic that the client is speaking about. The more that that client gets to speak, the more there's some juice that we can get out of a coaching session. I love where we are going already.
We are going to switch gears a little. We are going to stay here but switch gears. I was at a workshop with one of our key clients and I told this personal story and I'm going to tell you the personal story. As with all stories, I'm going to give you a historical reference of something that happened to me in my life with some friends of mine and my wife. I tell the story now, and even as I listen to it, I have to laugh at myself and go, “It happened a few years ago. I'm going to tell it like I remember it exactly,” but I don't. Isn't that funny? I will do my best. It proves a good point. I don't know how exactly accurate it was. Anyway, I will do it the best I can.
My wife and I went to California with some friends of ours for a long weekend down in Paso Robles, which, for people that may know about this area, it's a little wine region in central California the hair North of San Luis Obispo. We went down there to spend time with some friends for a weekend. On our way there, if you know that area, we flew into the Burbank Airport, which is North Los Angeles, and drove on the 101. I always think of the song Ventura Highway because that is the Ventura Highway. Venture Highway by America.
We were on this highway and you go through whatever in Los Angeles. You go up through Santa Barbara. It's a beautiful road. As we were going up there, our friends and we were close and talked about all manners of politics. This is the type of relationship with some people. All the things that you are not supposed to talk about at a party, we end up talking about like religion, politics, and all the things you are not supposed to.
For the most part, it's fairly amicable. This is where I get fuzzy on the story. I don't know who it was that said this, but when we were specifically speaking about things about religion at that time, we would share what we thought. When we did, our thoughts were shared at a level ten, meaning we believed that we were right about whatever topic it was. If you could do a spectrum on a scale of 0 to 10, this particular spectrum was, let's talk about certitude. That's the spectrum we are measuring. Zero would be like I'm completely clueless and have no idea about nothing. Ten is I'm 110% convinced that this is true.
As we were sharing things, each of us noticed that there were certain things when we were talking that we were all at level ten. It might have been my friend who commented. He said “Do you know what'd be interesting? For the remainder of this trip, when it comes to things like politics and religion or whatever it is that we were talking about, let's practice being a level six.”
Let's practice being a six because if you are talking to somebody, if you are in a coaching session, if you are talking to your wife, and if I'm talking to my wife and we are 10, if you are a 10, again, this is hyperbole. I'm going to use exaggeration to make my point. That's what hyperbole is. Being ten and being curious are at odds with one another. It's very difficult to be a ten and be curious. When I'm a ten, I'm dedicating so much energy to getting my tenness across to other people. “I believe this and I think that and I believe this.” When doing that, I'm not stepping back and going, “Tell me what you think about this.”
Furthermore, I had to laugh even beyond that because when it comes to things like faith and different things, how could I be a ten, anyway? That was me personally. I don't know what people will think about that, but if I'm a ten at everything, why would I need any faith? Since that time, and this was years ago, to this day, my wife and I look at each other often and smile.
When we are talking about what ingredient to put on a pizza and I say, “It's got to be this,” she will look at me and say, “That sounded pretty ten-like.” I will laugh, but it comes out. This is a practice. I am an undying student of being a six, so whenever I'm on a topic with another person, it leaves room for me to be curious because if I am a ten, I am not curious.
You are making me think of so many topics right now. In your story, you guys were talking about religion, I'm assuming, among other topics, but what is it, politics and religion? Those are the things that people go to extremes. We certainly see that these days and we see it online. I think that the world would be a better place if we were sixes and remained curious.
You can still feel strongly about things. Maybe I should ask this question. I don't think you are saying, “It's not that you can't feel strongly about things, but maybe being open or interested or a six about other people's opinions, viewpoints where their certitude is, interested,” that could change a lot of things for the better, I believe.
What's funny is I didn't know that one little statement in that car driving up there, for all I know, it was my friend's way of kindly taming my innate ten. It probably was. I tell the story now as I made it up. I don't think it was like that if I'm being honest. You can hear this in me. I was coming off like whatever. It's been a helpful companion to me now. I have to tell you, I often find myself feeling like and sounding like a ten about a lot of stuff. I was going to say that the number six was intentional.
It's okay to have opinions. It's okay to have convictions about things. This is almost more about how you see yourself out in the world. Remember, we are talking about practicing a level of curiosity. Sure. If somebody says, “You need to be a three.” I don't know. That would cause me to think, “I can't be certain or have opinions about anything ever.” I don't know that I would accept that. Being a six allowed space for me to still have my thoughts, my ideas, and my beliefs without coming off and sharing them like a ten.
I have questions.
Good. I do, too.
You do, too, because you are practicing six right this minute.
It was weird to think about doing this episode because whenever you share something, I can hear me coming off like a 10 as I talk about being a 6 and we got to laugh about that a little bit. I don't even know that we should even put this out. I think we will, but I don't know. What do you think? I'm curious to hear how this lands on you.
I don't want to forget my question, but you are making me think about some things. We will go in a couple of different directions here. First question. I think about the word convictions. I think about what a lot of companies do, even with mission and values. Values are things that people feel very strongly about. Values are things that don't change convictions. People are convicted about certain things.
What I'm not doing right now is challenging the lesson you are teaching, but I am asking you for your thoughts. You don't have to have the right answer, but to have your thoughts on whether is there a push and pull tension between convictions and the sixness. How they live together in the same world would be the specific question I'm asking.
That’s a great question and it's worth asking. The simple fact that you are setting it up and asking it like that, this push and pull ying and yang. You have heard us talk about this for a long time and someone might correct this, but it was F. Scott Fitzgerald who had this saying that the test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in your mind at the same time. You brought up two opposing ideas, an organization or an individual that has convictions. How can you hold convictions, have them, and still practice being a six?
A first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in your mind at the same time.
I'm not looking for you to have the answer. That's not what this is all about, especially now. I'd love to know your thoughts on it.
You are going to think this is crazy. I don't have any thoughts on that. I hope anyone reading this would be willing to take your question and walk with it themselves. I know in this world to hear me say I know, I'm pretty sure I should say that a lot of marketing if you look at marketing and selling of concepts and ideas, we do it by coming off like a ten. “You got to have this or you got to do this.” I don't know that it sells as well. Rather than have the answer to your question, wouldn't it be beautiful to walk with the question itself? How do you do that?
It is something to think about. One of the other things that was in my head was specific situations. I'm thinking not only of my own life but also of some clients where being a 6 versus a 10 would be super helpful. We didn't work this out ahead of time. This is off the top of my head here. I know from a parenting standpoint, myself, being curious in my kids' points of view right now as they are exiting their teen years and into their early twenties, they seem sure about some things. I have been sure about some things maybe in the opposite direction.
To be more curious about their points of view and where they are coming from and to understand them, I bet, would help our relationship a lot better and help me parent them, guide them, and shepherd them more. I'm also thinking of clients. I'm thinking of a handful of clients who are so sure about something about their boss, the project they are working on, and the state of the industry they are working in right now. I'm wondering, “If I wonder if they were a six and remain curious about some things. If things would get lubricated a little bit for them if things would go a little bit smoother for them than they are right now.”
I thought that language was interesting. “I wonder.”
I’m trying to practice what we are talking about.
It might be helpful to recognize that there probably are some things in life for which ten is appropriate. Safety issue. Moral issue. I don't think I'm implying that being a ten is never. That would be funny. Never be a ten. That's a ten-level thought. There probably are some situations. I guess what I'm trying to flesh out here and what we are doing here is where are there situations in your life with your relationships at work, at home, with family and friends where practicing the six might open up some questions and open up curiosity?
What you said I thought was super interesting. I read my diary. I kept a journal. We call it a diary, but it was a journal. I was 27 years old when I began that journal. I go back and read it now. I have to be honest. It's a little unnerving if not fascinating, to recognize how much I knew. I was a ten to myself. I was sitting there going, “This.” The way I thought and to myself, I was a ten.
I look at that now and I have compassion for that person in my life. Jack, my coach, would have helped me with that. Being a six would be much easier if everybody always agreed with us. You were talking about your kids. If your kids had a thought and the thought that they had was agreeable to you. You could practice curiosity.
It's specifically when it's not. How is our 10 coming against their 10? “I believe this is why I think that,” and that's like what you said. This is what bludgeoning people on social media. Everybody's a ten about stuff. I want to create a social media site called Six, where you come in and maybe share a thought you are unsure of. That would be funny because it's so uncommon, but everybody is a ten. You will note that if you agree with their tenness, you can get on board, but where's the curiosity?
I’m thinking of the concept and then thinking of different examples. As soon as we stop this episode, I'm going to go into emails and I bet that there are going to be times where I can practice being a 6 as I'm replying to emails instead of a 10. You and I are having a staff meeting. Maybe if we go into the meeting thinking, “Okay, 6-6, not 10-10,” I wonder if the meeting complexion would be different. I'm thinking throughout the day, there are so many different opportunities to practice this and I’m excited about doing that after this talk.
Practice. I'm a recovering ten. There are times when I have relapses in my recovery. I recognize that. People who know me and understand I have this vibrant like, “I'm on stage. I speak. You and I do this show where coaches,” would think it would be normal. What I'm trying to do is practice curiosity. I'm practicing. “Tell me more about that,” so I can grow and not be the most interesting guy out there, which I'm probably not anyway, but I could be the most interested person.
That might be a good place to put a pin on the conversation. That's good. Is it okay if we go to our insights at this point? I have got some insights.
You are right. We could go on for hours then we would violate the whole concept of our thing here.
The biggest insight that I'm having, I guess I probably already alluded to it a little bit, but is even now, my insight is I'm going to write a level six on my pad and I'm going to keep that on my desk and see how that affects things. You brought up this word at the beginning of our conversation, certitude. See how that affects things, how I respond to emails, have conversations, and navigate the day. See what happens. Be interested. Here's the meta for you. I will be interested to see how me being more interested throughout the day affects things. That's my insight and what I'm going to do too. I don't know. You taught it, but do you have any insights?
You stole mine. The whole 10-6 concept works well in the world because what we are trying to do is become more curious people. To practice that outwardly with people is cool. For me, you and I went to the same place there, it's also a very cool inner practice. It's a wonderful outer practice. I do want to repeat. We are not saying be six. There's probably a time to be a ten at things. I get it. When can we suspend our tenness so that our sixness can help us be more curious?
The ten-six concept works well because we try to become more curious people.
Sometimes, I'm a ten inside myself to myself. “I think this person that.” I have this inner dialogue that's a ten to myself. I want to attend to that and not put it down or recognize that. Maybe that will help me also practice being more outwardly with people. I have a long way to go and it's still practice as our most soft skill. Thank you.
We all do. Thank you for not only the lesson but also for the insight to end us there. As we say at the end of all of our episodes, those are our insights. What's most important is what insights did you get?
We will see you next time in the next episode.
See you later, everybody.