Michael Roub is the Managing Partner of Inflection 360. He has more than two decades of expertise as a strategic advisor, consultant, executive, and investment banker. A healthcare and wellness expert, Michael also has extensive experience in strategy, M&A, and capital raising. Prior to starting Inflection 360, he held executive roles at Western Dental and US HealthWorks and previously developed and operated surgical centers. He began his career as an investment banker with DLJ. Michael holds a BS in Economics from the Wharton School of Business and an MBA from the University of Chicago Booth School of Business.
In this episode, Jason and Michael discuss:
- Transition from investment banking to healthcare executive and strategic advisor
- The importance of real-world exposure and collaborative projects during his education
- Strategic advisory, M&A, and legacy planning for C-suite executives
- Balancing focus on core operations while exploring growth opportunities
- The transformative impact of AI, machine learning, and natural language processing on businesses across industries
Key Takeaways:
- Focus on preparedness rather than memorized rehearsal to ensure effective communication and minimize stress during important interactions. Thoughtfully planning ahead allows for smoother, more genuine conversations.
- Every business has unique needs and challenges. Take the time to listen, observe, and fully understand these nuances before offering any solutions or making decisions.
- It’s crucial to keep core operations running smoothly while remaining adaptable to new opportunities for growth. Balancing these two priorities helps create long-term success.
- With increasing access to capital from sources like private equity and family offices, thorough reciprocal due diligence is essential to protect interests on both sides of the deal.
- Embrace emerging technologies like AI, machine learning, and Natural language processing to remain competitive, but always verify the accuracy of the information to ensure sound decision-making.
“We can be aware of all the opportunities we want to pursue, but functionally, maybe one person tackles one front while someone else tackles another. Or maybe the company, as it's set up, can only handle one change at a time. You think in chess—planning moves ahead—but you're playing like checkers, moving one step at a time. If not, you risk throwing things into disarray. You can’t do everything at once, and I see that every day, not just professionally but personally too.”
- Michael Roub
Connect with Michael Roub
Connect with Jason and Steve:
- LinkedIn: Jason or Steve
- Website Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking
- Email: grow@rewireinc.com
Listen to the podcast here:
Michael Roub- Think Like Chess, Play Like Checkers
Hello and welcome everybody to this episode of The Insight interviews. This is your host, Jason Abell, and I tell you what. I've got a guest today, when I saw him on my schedule, I was like, ah, who is this guy? Let me check into this. And then, whoa, man, did I find a lot. My guest today is Michael Roub. Michael is the managing partner of Inflection 360 and Inflection, 360 does all kinds of things, but I will say this. If you are part of the C suite, and you think that in some form or fashion you need help from a strategic standpoint, from an M & A standpoint, from a legacy standpoint, Michael may very well be your guy. Michael is a graduate of the Wharton School of Business, which I think we're going to dive into a little bit, but with no further ado, Michael, welcome to the show.
Jason, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Kind intro anyway.
Oh well, I'm gonna tear you apart in a few minutes, so don't worry about that.
Fair enough. Yeah.
I will say this. We have a first question that we ask every guest and it’s going to be the same with you. As you and I engage one another, you're on the West Coast, I'm on the east coast, it's morning for you, it's starting to be afternoon for me, we're coming together here in July of 2024, who or what strikes you this morning, Michael, that you're grateful for?
Oh, well, I just got married, remarried six weeks ago.
Congratulations.
My wife, who is my mentor on a lot of levels, and really is that person who keeps me focused over the last, as you work with a lot of ups and downs and client relationships and businesses, not getting too caught up in things. So, I'm particularly grateful for her. You know, if I add one more plug, my dad has always been, who was a very successful professional in his career, still to this day, is one of my first phone calls, whenever I'm trying to work through something.
That says a lot.
I’m fortunate in that I have those two people that I really can lean on, when, yeah, when I have some questions to seek out.
When the answer person has questions, who does he go to? And it sounds like your wife and your dad are two really cool people to go to.
Yeah, it's pretty healthy.
Well, let's dive in. You know, a lot of our listeners know of, or are graduates themselves, but know of the mystique of Wharton. I'd love to ask you this. I know it's been, you know, a few years since you were there, but is there a particular story, and dude, I say that with all respect. I think we’re around the same age, but is there an experience or a story that sticks out to you from your time at Wharton?
Yeah, so I was a Wharton undergrad, which, you know, similar program to the MBA program, just doing it at an early age without the context of a professional experience behind you. The talent level of some of the students, I mean, probably most of the students, was just unbelievable, and I was amazed by how engaged people were and how hard they worked. I thought, I thought I was that guy, and then I realized there's just a ton of people that were like me, and then to a whole other level. But you know that being said, it was a highly competitive environment, but I was more of a finance focused individual, but I took a marketing class because I had to, and next thing I knew, I added marketing as a concentration as well, and found those classes to be particularly enriching back in the day, because I really that felt like the first real collaborative opportunities that broke the schools evolved a lot since that time, but I think a lot of teamwork and team projects were not always as much the norm then as they are now. And working on projects and working and being able to then go, here I was 20 years old and going working actually out with real companies on marketing projects, as you know, a college kid and standing and then walking to a meeting at the end of it, I was working on becoming Bostonian shoes, and had done a project for them. I did a project for three months, and walked in and thought we're going to do a presentation to the CFO, and didn't realize we're doing a presentation to the entire board. And so, I had to walk in, and I walked into a room of 10 people and gave a full presentation on marketing direction. And I think, you know, that's that was a little bit of a surprise, but talking about one of those opportunities where, you know, if you can kind of get that level exposure early in your career, I then went in investment banking, and from that, from day one, felt pretty comfortable being in front of an audience of pretty experienced professionals and recognized that people would actually listen if you were prepared and knew what you're talking about. So, I kind of got out of my way of I'm only 20 this, I'm only 20 that.
Right.
I never, sort of looked back from a career standpoint of always, if I have an opinion, try to share it, no matter who's in the room.
So, this idea of preparedness, that is something that man, I've just talked to my clients a lot about recently, and then I've even noticed it with myself, Michael. You know, I'm on the speaking platform many times a year, and I will tell you when I don't take that platform for granted, and I prepare like it was my first time ever, it just seems to go not only so much better, but like, great type of thing. So, this idea of preparedness, I know when you filled out some of your initial booking information, we ask a lot about leadership, and so I don't know, I'd love for you to expand just a little bit more on that idea of preparedness.
Yeah, I mean, going back to that day, I always had a rule that if I was going to give a presentation, PowerPoint, this is the early 90s, like PowerPoint was a new concept, right?
Right.
But if I'm going to give a PowerPoint slide, the last thing I'm going to ever do is look at my own slide while I'm presenting.
Yes.
So yeah, it's going to be bullet points, and I don't want people just reading it, because I don't want to give them enough information, but I better know every layer of thought underneath what those bullet points would mean, so that it just becomes an easy conversation. I'm not big on rehearsing, I'm big on preparation. I don't ever want to sound like a canned actor, but I don't really know how to really memorize a speech. I'd rather memorize the points and understand what I'm talking about. And I do think, you know, and that sort of has followed me through everything. I tend to, just on a daily basis, I tend to, in the evening, look at what I'm trying to do the next day. So, I start my day with a plan, while my coffee is still settling in, I'm actually moving in the day, and so trying to figure out what I'm going to be doing. So, I think, kind of in all phases of maybe to a fault, organization, I definitely believe in preparing myself, and I think that actually reduces my stress level, my anxiety level for no matter what I'm doing.
Yeah, so true. I know when we do business planning workshops for clients that are heavy in sales, you know, we start that actually pretty soon, like September, October timeframe, and sometimes we get this pushback like, man, we're just trying to get through the fourth quarter right now. What do you mean next year? And I'm like, well, your top competitors, they've already got next year baked, like it’s already baked from a preparation standpoint. So yeah, I hear you loud and clear on that, from a from a prep standpoint. Would you mind telling our listeners what it is, you know, okay, we started in the 90s with Wharton, let's fast forward to now. What is the superpower of Inflection 360 and Michael Roub? Like, what exactly is it that you all do best?
I think it's really, it starts with really stepping back and understanding and listening to, you know, the leadership, whether it's just the CEO, whether it's a management team, really understanding their skills and capabilities and what their pressure points are, their pain points. I've never looked at something as I can walk in on day one and tell anyone what to do with their business. And I think anyone who does that is they're just that, they're selling a playbook instead of actually understanding a company. And you know, no two businesses are the same, even if they functionally look the same, they operate very differently, because you have humans and processes are going to vary. And so, from day one, you know, I set out to work as a functional member of the C suite, whether that would be in a very limited capacity, like a light advisor, or where somebody who's really hands on, sleeves rolled up and in the day-to-day grind. But either way, that's sort of something that takes multiple conversations, meetings, interactions, to start even formulating how the right value can be added. So, I come in with a very open mindset and open book in terms of what I can bring to the table, but first, what does the business actually need, and not trying to force something on a business that doesn't make any sense. And I think that's been in that executive role in multiple companies, and then in my investment banking paths, having worked with so many companies also in a similar kind of capacity, I just think that it's always, I've just taken that mindset. I’ve been an operator; I've been an advisor, so, what's going to matter for this particular business? And I think that's always been my approach.
"And so really, no business relationship, no engagement, no client- one has never been quite like the other."
Yeah, yeah, that listening first piece, you know, the manner in which you all work with clients, I'm sure you have seen patterns, and you have seen things, but it sounds like, I mean, I've talked to people where they're like, kind of the opposite of what you just said. Man, I can sit in a boardroom and I can tell them what their thing is within five minutes, because I've seen it before. And I'm like, oh, really? And so, for you, you're like, yeah, maybe, but listen first.
Yeah. In five minutes I probably have a pretty good sense, but there's always what you know, and then what you really learn, and those become two very different things. And yeah, I do feel like I get to cheat, because I think between all my different companies I work with in my career, I've seen so many different people, and I sort of bucket like, Person A is kind of like Person B that I worked with 10 years ago. So, it's a little bit of using a lot of past experience to guide decisions, but there's guaranteed to be several curveballs that you never expected if you don't stop and actually listen to what's going on.
As you're listening, what types of things right now are you seeing? I guess in any generation they think we're in an odd time in the world, but I think they are right now. What types of things are you seeing? Or are there any patterns of particular challenges that you're seeing with businesses right now? I know you work in healthcare and a lot of sports, a lot of different other industries. Are you seeing some patterns where there are certain challenges that they keep on kind of bubbling to the top right now?
Yeah. Well, I think one thing that even in an industry like healthcare, where obviously there are advances in medicine, there are advances in technology, but the function of my area of healthcare, where I have the most expertise in the last 20 years, is really in the service side providers, where I've built and run surgery centers. I've had hundreds of physician partners. I've worked in the dental industry and merger and acquisitions; occupational analysis doesn't really matter the space when you're working with doctors and providers there. So, there's this lot of this commonality that will never change, but what has changed dramatically in that space is the impact of things like private equity, you know? So how I got into that whole world in the first place, the merger and acquisition runs that have occurred because of all this capital coming into the space, and so you're dealing with many organizations where even very successful ones which have grown from a single doctor practice where they've now got 100 locations, and it's still functionally somebody who's extremely smart and extremely well trained in medicine and has learned business, and they may or may not have the right people around them to fill all their gaps. They may have good operators, but I find that tenant, you know how they look at financials is, you know, the single doctor practice mentality versus, you know, you're a big company now, and, and how you really think about business. And then those that become aware of it can get very caught up in, how do I sell for ton of money versus continue to operate your business and grow it appropriately? So, learning that, and I think that's a challenge with any owner who has a successful business. If somebody wants to buy it, or could potentially, how do you stay focused on the business itself and not get distracted by all the shiny things around you, even if you want to pursue them? And I wish all medical and dental programs had multiple courses on finance 101, accounting 101, management 101. Things that they all deserve to know, because they are running what can end up being some very, very lucrative businesses without some of that proper background, you know?
You know, I think any industry has that challenge of the shiny penny. I know that that we do from time to time. My partner and I are talking often about, well, sure, we could be doing that, and that looks new and exciting and great, but is it a distraction from our main focus of what we're trying to do?
Yep.
And so, when you work with these owners and boards, C suite, what type of advice do you give to them with when they're dealing with that particular challenge? And I know it depends, because of what you said, the different personalities, like life cycle, everything else, but are there things that come to mind where you go, yeah, this is something that pretty regularly I talk to people about.
Yeah, I think, I mean, a big part of it is that I always, in my old career, I've always thought that a transaction, whether it's raising capital, whether it's selling your business, those, ultimately, I think, are gravy. You know, if you're trying to build a business to quickly sell it, I think there tends to be a lot of holes in the operations. I mean, obviously there are the stories of people who can pull it off, but I don't think that's the norm. So, what I really tell people is, yeah, this like, what's going to make your business more successful? It will lead to all of those opportunities. And, you know, to help in that regard, I always find that, you know, if the leadership of the company is willing to listen to me, on one hand, of course, otherwise, why am I there, but to the people in their organization and to anyone else out there, I think you have to be open to listening and understanding what's going on out there, not to get distracted by it, but to absorb where it makes sense, and let go of what doesn't. And I think they should be open to change. That's tricky for all kinds of people, me included, at times, but not afraid to try some things. But that also means not afraid to be wrong or to fail. Obviously, not betting the farm on the business or doing something catastrophic, but adapting and changing is really part of things, and as I think everybody knows, whether it's digital marketing or something else, what anyone knew yesterday has changed tomorrow. And so, you have to even these businesses that were very traditional, brick and mortar, basic businesses, they've had to evolve, or have to continue to evolve, and so there has to be a willingness to believe that maybe you don't know everything perfectly, and there might be some opportunities out there, while still not losing focus on what's made you successful to that point. So, there's this weird balance and that's trying to keep people in that mode of not losing sight of the day to day, while considering how to make the business better for the future. Back to your planning for the year ahead, and what's that going to look like? It's financial planning, but the operational planning, and the roadmap leads to the financial success. I can make any number up in a spreadsheet, but how am I functioning getting there?
Yeah, I'm smiling as you're talking, because I'm thinking about just that balance. You know, even in your answer about, okay, we need to stick to the plan, or a plan, and then also being open to change. You said being open to change, there's that balance that leaders need to strike. And yeah, I don't know, what are you seeing out there? Like with that balance, because I think if you go to either end of the spectrum, always being distracted by the new thing and being, yes, I'm open to change, AI, whatever, let's go, versus No, we've always done it this way, neither one of those ends of the spectrum are good. So how do you narrow the people that you work with, you know, to, I don't know, just have that balance?
"Well, I'd say it's just like anything in life. I used to try to say I was a great multitasker. What I found is, I can work on a lot of things, but I have to work on one thing (in a focused way) at a time."
That's right.
And so, we can be aware of all the opportunities and things we want to pursue, but functionally, maybe it is one person on the team can tackle one front while somebody tackles another. Or maybe the company, the way it's set up is the company can tackle one change or one looking at something. You're thinking in chess, you’re thinking moves like chess, but you're playing like checkers. You've got to move one move at a time, and most these businesses you could really throw it into disarray. So, I do think it's being selective and recognizing that you can't do everything you dream of at one time. In my personal life, I see that every day, so not just my professional but personally.
Well, I definitely wrote that down. Think like chess but play like checkers, or something like that.
I think what I did is I stole something from Kobe Bryant and slightly adapted it there, but yeah, because he always said he’s not playing checkers, he’s playing chess, but I do think we got to move like checkers. Like for most businesses are going to be more successful.
Yeah, and your day to day, yep, that's exactly right. Is there anything right now, I know we talked a little bit prerecording, any particular trends that you're seeing or projects or anything that is especially exciting to you these days?
Well, I do think, you know I alluded to this, the constant influx of capital. I think that for businesses out there, it used to be getting a bank loan used to be your way to success and I think there's so many different avenues for businesses to grow, that need capital. Private equity groups have greatly, their starting investment levels and valuations have come down dramatically over the years. So, I don't think you could do a private equity deal under ten million dollars a year, years ago, but now it's like you can get lots of million dollars, half million. A lot of these firms are really like a bench, a venture group plus versus there was, I think there was a big gap between adventure and private equity, and I don't think there is a gap at all now. And frankly, I think some deals could fall into either bucket of communities. I think that that's a big change that I've seen in the last several years, that there's just more access to capital in different ways, and therefore that can lead to a lot of SMART Capital people, that really can partner and give guidance. And that's in any sector, but I've just lived it a lot in the healthcare world, so I sort of felt it on a daily basis, and interact with a lot of groups in that regard. That I think is one of the biggest changes. And then I think there's the emergence of more and more, as all these people have generated a lot of wealth, more family offices, where family offices used to be in the shadows and people didn't know they were there, they've become much more visible as outward investors, and so I think easier to locate nontraditional private equity esque investors operate in a different capacity. I see a lot more. I've spoken to a number of family offices in the last several years on opportunities. They are getting more aggressive and active in seeking out new investments in a much more visible manner than they had historically.
Am I to take the way that you answered that question, and sometimes I'm a little simple, and so forgive me here, but am I to take away from that, that, hey, there's capital out there for your business, whether it may be a venture capitalist, it may be a bigger firm, it may be as small as a family office, like, it still may be a bank loan or a SBA loan, am I to take from this, there's capital out there?
Yeah, there are Kickstarter's and all that stuff too, right? It’s not passing a hat around friends and family. And I'm a big fan of bootstrapping a business, if you can, as far as you can go with it, but when you can or want to get capital, I do think there have become just many more accessible avenues to get it. I think those avenues all were there, I just don't know how people could tap into them, and I just think it's become easier, and there seems to just be a lot more, I mean, the returns have been great for so many people that they're willing to go into other sectors, willing to lower the thresholds. The game has changed. But I also think that being said, while there's all that good opportunity, that means there's a lot of people out there who probably have no idea what they're doing, but have capital, and so that's dangerous too. So, do your due diligence and be careful who you take money from, or who you partner with, right?
Just because it's available doesn't mean it's right for you.
Yeah, the highest dollar isn't always the best one, and it might be, but there's a lot of factors there. So yeah. So, I think that adds a layer of complexity. It adds opportunity, but how does somebody who's never been exposed to raising capital or seeking investors or bringing in partners from a financial side, how do you navigate that and really ensure that you're ending up with something that's going to help you be successful? And I think people think look at due diligence. Somebody wants to give me money. They want to know everything about my business. Are you asking all the same questions back to them about why you want to take their money?
Yeah, it's so good. That's a good one, right there. Yeah, just because it's available with whether it's the economy or the technology or the availability of cash or really anybody that you're doing but any type of vendors that you're doing business with, check them out as much as they check you out.
100%
Yeah, it's a good one. That's really good advice for business owners out there right now. For our listeners, as you have a perspective that I think is different. I mean the name of your company in and of itself, Inflection 360, I feel like you're up above, you're kind of looking from a different perspective, more of a 30,000 foot 360 view than most of us that are in the trenches. Is there anything that you're seeing on the horizon that you would say, hey, business owner, you might want to pick your head up and just take a look over there? Anything like that that you're seeing?
Let me think about that one for a second. How to best answer that.
Yeah.
And I do appreciate, yeah. The name is very much me taking my marketing background, my finance background, I do a lot of corporate strategy work, so I like to look at 30,000 feet, and then I like to hit ground level and figure out where I plug in and work best.
Right on.
So, it's going from looking at a high level, and then I think somebody who gives advice and doesn't make it actionable isn't very helpful either, and so I look to where, here's what I see as an opportunity or challenges in the business, and here's how I can help, or we can help in this situation. And so, making those plans actionable, and so that’s a little bit, you know, flavor of how I sort of envisioned the business, and really have tried to operate now for however many years we’ve been around, closing it on decade or plus, or whatever, in that format. But I do think it is, you know, anything else to be aware of, and thinking that that high level is that I'm the wrong guy to talk about AI, but obviously that's having a dramatic impact. Even though I’m a novice, there it is changing a lot of things. I mean, across healthcare, I'm seeing so many facets of how it's impacting things in the non-healthcare sector. I'm watching companies write their first writing marketing draft materials and press releases that look amazing and maybe they're all wrong, and then you edit from them. The technology is evolving so fast that, yeah, it's not surprising yet I'm shocked by it at the same time. I just can't believe how successful and how effective those tools have become so quickly. I get that it was coming, but it's really, it's impressive.
Oh, yeah.
And, you know, just because you have a chatGPT write something for you, don't trust that it's accurate. I've tested it out and I’m like that's all-fake information, but it's a great starting place.
Yeah.
So, yeah. So, I think they should be guides and not the be all, end all, but I do think that will continue to transform businesses, and I think in ways that believe are just scratching the surface. And I think even from the most complex business, that even the most simple industries should be able to find opportunities to take advantage of it. And there are definitely people out there, you know, whether it be on the marketing side, the operational side, those that are quickly learning how to take advantage of that are really maximizing their time and potential. And so, I see where I've got my own homework to do to keep getting myself smarter and align myself with people who can really be helpful to companies in that in that regard. But I've already been blown away with some of the companies I work with that are doing some things.
Yeah, AI and technology. We had a guest on the show a couple of weeks ago, they're replacing call centers with AI, and it is, he gave me some demos. It is dramatic. I mean, it is. And I said, well, what's the adoption rate on something like this? And he's like, basically zero right now, but the minute the word starts to get out on how effective this is, it'll, I mean, you know, what do they talk about? The hockey stick effect? Like the adoption rate, where anybody that runs any type of a call center will eventually be doing it this way, within a very short period of time. And so that's just one example, I'm sure in healthcare you're seeing it.
Yeah, as soon as you said that, it made me think of a couple companies I know quite well that we're doing a less sophisticated form of AI, just monitoring calls and recognizing missed opportunities and where there were issues like not properly rescheduling cases in the dental history and using AI. And I'm guaranteeing that the platform I saw three years ago and was working well is probably 100 times better than it was three years ago, and really just changing the profitability practices by ensuring that the case is improperly scheduled, that nothing is missed, and it's really taking advantage of machine learning, and to help humans do their job better. Which is, you know, not to take it away from the humans in that case, but to actually help the humans.
Man, yeah, that's exactly right. So great, great takeaway. I mean, the question, I love the answer that you gave, for a few different reasons, Michael. One, you're not proposing to be an expert in it, but at the same time, you're seeing this, and you're recognizing it again from a 30,000-foot view, and going, boy, I've got a lot to learn on it. And I'm in your boat, by the way, I have a lot to learn. I think everybody needs, you know, even the experts, that there's still a lot to learn. But, boy, don't miss it. Don't sleep on it type of thing, correct?
Yeah, yeah.
I have a feeling as a result of this conversation that there's going to be people that are going to want to reach out to you. What's the best way to get a hold of you, Michael?
I am easily tracked down on my website. It's Inflection 360. You can contact me. Or LinkedIn. I'm happy when people poke at me, and so to reach out. I like to hear about people's businesses. I like to hear what they're doing, even if I'm not the person to ultimately help them. It's not a perfect fit for me, or I'm not a perfect for them. I've happily helped people point in the right direction. I think everybody's story is interesting. So, I love podcasts like this. I love to hear what people are doing and how they're thinking about business. So, yeah, I love it when people reach out and say, I heard you here and would like to talk a little bit more, and I'm happy, as you know, it's all about sharing. Sharing your experiences is sort of the opening to really developing relationships you never anticipated.
Well, you've certainly done that with us today, and I can tell you on behalf of the Insight Interview community, which there's a few of us, thank you. Thank you for sharing your time, your expertise with us today. Michael Roub, with Inflection 360, I do have a feeling some people will reach out to you and Michael, thank you so much for your time today.
I really appreciate you having me. And you know, this is like minded people talking is fun too, but I mean obviously different experiences, but they all kind of come back together. So, this is great.
Yeah, look at that. We had some fun. We added some value. You added value to me. I just took a page worth of notes, and so thank you for that, but I hope our paths cross again soon, Michael. thank you so much.
Thanks.
Well, there you have it, folks. Michael Roub from inflection 360. Boy, lots of insights that I have as I think I always do. I really appreciated his very first answer of his two mentors, being grateful for them, his wife and his dad. For some reason that just that hit me in a really good way. When I asked him about Wharton, one of the things that stuck out to me was just that hard work, and there's so many other people that are working hard, and there is value in just plain old hard work. The idea of preparation- that stuck out to me, that was an insight and a reminder for me. And then this idea of we need to be thinking about the chess game that we're playing, but we also need to play checkers right here and now, what's in front of us. And then there were some tangible things about just, man, if your business can benefit from an inflow of cash, gosh, there's just plenty of ways in this day and age that we live in, whether it be, yeah, venture capital, bank fund, bank money, SBA loan, even home offices that are offering investment capital, there's money out there. So anyways, Michael Roub, thank you so much for being on the show. Many, many insights were had by this host. But as we say at the end of every episode of The Insight Interviews, doesn't much matter what my insights were, what really matters, dear listeners, are what were your insights?
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