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Mahesh Guruswamy is a seasoned product development executive with over twenty years of experience in software development and more than a decade of managing teams of varying sizes. He is currently the Chief Technology Officer at Kickstarter and previously led product development teams at Mosaic, Kajabi, and Smartsheet. Inspired by his favorite author, Stephen King, Mahesh began his writing journey with short stories before discovering long-form writing as a powerful way to share insights with product development teams. His essays over the years culminated in his book How to Deliver Bad News and Get Away With It. Passionate about mentorship, Mahesh especially enjoys guiding aspiring people managers and those new to leadership roles.

 

In this episode, Jason and Mahesh discuss:

  • Navigating difficult conversations as leaders through the book How to Deliver Bad News and Get Away With It
  • Insights on business innovation, growth, and career risk-taking
  • Importance of changing roles every two years for new challenges
  • Strategies for delivering honest feedback with emotional intelligence
  • Framing problems as collaborative puzzles for effective problem-solving

Key Takeaways:

  • Navigating difficult conversations requires a balance of emotional intelligence and long-term thinking, ensuring feedback is constructive rather than reactive. Leaders who approach tough discussions with empathy create environments where honesty leads to growth.
  • A strategic approach to delivering feedback starts with open-ended questions and progressively increases in directness if issues persist, avoiding emotional language while presenting clear solutions.
  • Career growth accelerates when individuals embrace calculated risks, change roles every two years for new challenges, and remain open to opportunities rather than instinctively rejecting them.
  • Adaptability is essential in navigating career instability, as it demands identifying transferable skills, exploring entrepreneurship, and maintaining persistent networking to pivot effectively when needed.
  • True fulfillment extends beyond financial success, emphasizing the importance of mentorship, altruism, and leaving a lasting positive impact on others as the ultimate measures of a meaningful life.

 


“I actually encourage people to take risks. The way I see it, life is short. If you have a goal in mind and are committed to achieving something, then take the risk. You have to roll the dice.”

 - Mahesh Guruswamy

Connect with Mahesh Guruswamy:


Connect with Steve and Jason:

 

Listen to the podcast here:

Mahesh Guruswamy- If You Want a Slice, You Gotta Roll The Dice

 

Hello and welcome everybody to this episode of The Insight Interviews. This is your host, Jason Abell, and I've got a guest today who, gosh, I'm fired up about this guest, because it's not theory, it's not theoretical, it's not intangible; I'm talking to a gentleman today who is in the thick of it with you. So, who do I have? I have Mahesh Guruswamy. Listen to this guy. Listen to what Mahesh is up to these days. So, he's currently the Chief Product and Technology officer at Kickstarter. Yes, you heard me right, Kickstarter. That's probably an organization that you've heard of. He's also held the same job at other brand names that you've probably heard of, like Mosaic, Kajabi and Smart Sheet. Mahesh is also a prolific writer with all kinds of articles on Substack and recently completed his first book. The name of this book, it caught my attention, and it might catch yours; “How to Deliver Bad News and Get Away with It”. Love that title. It's a book on how to navigate the difficult conversations that today's leaders need to have. There are so many places that we can dig in, but first, Mahesh, welcome to the show.

Happy to be here. You're way too kind. Jason.

Hey, that's your bio. You did those things, not me. I mean, come on, that's good stuff, and when I read something that I'm impressed with, I'm gonna say it. I do have an opening question that has nothing to do with the conversations that leaders need to have, it has nothing to do with the title that you hold at Kickstarter or any of these other places, but we've done this podcast for over three years now and we ask the same question to every single guest, which is really just to get us facing in a particular direction, and Mahesh, that is, who or what are you particularly grateful for today?


I am definitely, definitely grateful for my family. My wife, and my son. My son who's 11, I think he's way smarter, more empathetic, more thoughtful, more self-reflective than me, and my wife, who is definitely, definitely smarter than me and some of her advice has actually led me to the jobs and roles I'm in right now. And I have a couple of interesting stories about that, but yeah, I'm thankful for both of them.

Very good. I don't know that I've met one person on the face of this planet, Mahesh that did it on their own, right? And so, the way that you just answered that question just supports that, right? All of us have a support system around us that help us do whatever it is that we do, and I'll speak for myself without, without my circle of influence around me and my wife and my kids, so to speak, it just doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen, so yeah, very cool. Thank you for that. There's a ton of places that we could dive in, and yes, I read a little bit about your bio, but how does one get to be in the position of CTO of an organization like Kickstarter? Like, there was a time in your life where that wasn't the case, and today, in 2025, that is the case. Give us a little bit of a background on how you got there.

Oh, that's a great question. When I was starting out, this is like 20 years ago, when I was a software engineer, I was an individual contributor, one of the pieces of feedback that I've gotten from my managers back then is, yes, you seem to have a knack for convincing people. You seem to figure out how to convince people to do something that they don't really want to do. So, they like encouraged me to explore management and leadership. I ended up managing a small team back at Fidelity Investments, which was one of my first jobs, and then I just got a lot of satisfaction from helping a team deliver on its commitments, you know, seeing people grow through their careers, and I decided that management was the path for me., and I started pursuing it from that point onwards. And one of the things about me, I kind of realized it over time, is even though on the surface I'm calm, I'm also like, fairly ambitious when me with my career. In fact, one of my close friends described me as calm, but oddly ambitious, is the way they described me. So, when I became an engineering leader, it became clear that, you know, I can be, like, really good at this. So, then in my mind, I'm going, okay, how do I go to the next level? How do I explore newer things and more and try to find more economy and more responsibility. So, a few things that that helped me land like a C suite job. One is being aggressive with your career. I know a lot of people when they find a job that they like, they tend to stay in those jobs for a very long time, and I actually encourage people to explore new things, especially if you're getting comfortable. And my wife has a joke about me. She would say, you're at a two year mark at a company, you are definitely getting restless. So, if the job becomes more predictable and more easy to do over time, I'm naturally very restless. I'm like, okay, how do I get to the next level that will challenge my skills? So one is, I would say, be aggressive with your career. Two, don't hesitate to take risks. Maybe it like flies in the face of what is the common advice people are given in careers is like, don't take risks, but I actually encourage people taking risks. The way I look at it is, life is short, and if you have a goal in mind, and if you have set your mind to achieving something, then take the risks. You can roll the dice. I'm a big fan of hip hop, so in the words of Nipsey, "if you want a slice, you got to roll the dice". So, I kind of believe in that pretty deeply. The last thing I'll say is, especially like moving from middle management to executive leadership is never start a response with no. Don't start a response with no, especially when somebody asks you, can this be done, because that's a big difference between how entry level managers and middle managers and middle managers think about solving problems versus how executives think about solving problems. If you ask a middle manager, hey, I have this big problem, can we go solve it? You know, if their response is, if they start with, well, we have all these constraints, we have all these problems, we don't have money, that usually will not go well if you're aspiring to become an executive. As an executive, you have to start with yes. This is a yes. Let's go figure out how to get this thing done, how to make it happen, and the path to making it happen might be, let's go hire a new team, let's prioritize things differently on our roadmap or acquire a new company. Whatever might be the case, right? So, I kind of encourage people to not lie about the realities, but also start the response with yes and X, Y and Z.

Dude. There are so many things in there. First of all, the Nipsey quote. That that may end up being the title of this episode. So, just so you know, that was perfectly placed in there. But, man, I've got questions for you. So sure, life is short, take the risk. I mean, you're talking to a fellow that like, not only am I nodding my head to that, but I try my best. I don’t know that I live up to this all the time, but I try my best to live that way and make business decisions that way. I think a lot of people listening this might be nodding their head as well, but I'd like to just dig in deeper on that one, like, what exactly do you mean by that? And if there's a story or two that you can think of, gosh, that'd be great. Like, I'd love to just go beneath the surface on that one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I'm an immigrant, so me and my wife before we individually came here to this day, about 20 years ago, and then we got married here. So, I came on a visa. I came on a student visa, got my masters, and then I got my work visa and started working for a company. One of the many quirks of the US immigration system is your company has to sponsor your visa, right? So, I worked for Fidelity Investment. Fidelity was like, it's hard to find somebody to fill this role, so we're hiring an immigrant, and here's a visa for it. When you move companies, the other company has to sponsor your visa, or has to carry that with them, and that's an expensive process, and not many companies do it. So, the common advice given to immigrants is stay in the job until you get your permanent residency, right? And I was not there for it at all, You know, I'm a permanent resident now, and at some point I think I should apply for a citizenship, but I'm happy with what it is right now.

Sure.

So I was like, there’s no way I'm going to spend like, 10-15, years at the same company waiting for my permanent residency. So, I was like, okay, I'm going to seek out companies that will sponsor my visa and find new jobs, and the thing is, some of those jobs ended up being duds, and that's what I mean by taking risks, right? So, I have had at least like two or three jobs, and I won't name them, because then that'd be problematic, but at least two or three jobs in in my last 20 some years that have been not great. I didn't fit well with the organization, I didn't gel well with my manager, and we ended up parting ways, and those are the risks, right? And those situations are, some are hard, right? Because you go in wanting to make a difference, things don't work out, and then you kind of have to, like, walk back your steps and find a new job, etc.

Sure, sure.

And that has a financial risk associated with it if you're not independently financially wealthy, which I'm not. So, I'm not saying that this will work for everybody, but this worked for me because I was determined to get from point A to point B, and if it means that I have to take these lateral moves or lateral risks, I was willing to do it. I'll say quickly, one more thing, and then I'll talk. I think the other advice that is that is given to predominantly immigrants is to stick with large companies. So, when I was at Amazon, and Amazon is like a gigantic company, and I was pretty happy and pretty successful there, and this new company came to me, Smart Sheet was the company, and back then, I had never heard of them, so I didn't know what they did, but when I googled them, I was like, oh, this is a West Coast based company doing project management software. I was like, oh, that sounds cool, and when I was considering moving, people told me, why are you leaving Amazon? It's like a really good company, and it pays really well, and you can work on like really cool products. The thing was Smart Sheet was offering me a path to an executive role. They were giving me the opportunity to go build a team from scratch in a new geographical location. So, their company was headquartered in Bellevue, and they wanted somebody to build out their Boston site. This is back when I was in Boston, and I was like, this is a pretty cool opportunity to do something from scratch. So, I took the risk, and it paid off. So Smartsheet went public nine months after I joined. I was hired as a senior director, then I became a VP, and that opened doors to other executive roles. If I stayed at Amazon, I think I would be behind by at least like five to six years, compared to where I am right now. So again, if you have a goal in mind, I would say, you know, take those risks, even if they feel uncomfortable.

So, in today's world, you know, we're recording this the beginning of 2025 and there are a lot of people from a career standpoint, especially government career, and probably will be for the next few years, unstable. That is probably an understatement. And so, there's a lot of people having career thoughts and different decisions to be made, and maybe tough decisions. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how would maybe some of those people that might be listening to this, any type of insights or advice that you would have? That's a little bit different than your story, right? Like, you are ambitious, even though you're quietly ambitious, but you are like that duck on the water, right? Like, you look calm, but the feet are moving fast type of thing, right? But not everybody is like that. So, the people that are, some in middle management and some in upper management that, gosh, they're just going to have some tougher decisions that need to be made because of things that are outside of their control, you know? Any type of insights or advice that you would give to that population of people?

Yeah, and again, this is one dude's point of view. So, everybody should make the decision based on what they think is right for them and their family situation.

Sure.

I think it comes down to kind of explicitly writing down what you're good at. What are you good at? What are your skills? Which of those skills are transferable to another industry, another company, etc.? My prediction, given the way the stock market is going right now, my prediction is the market will be back on track in about a year. That is my prediction. So, what that means is companies will start hiring more, the economy will open up, consumer spending will go up, and that means that there will be more opportunities, so companies will end up hiring more in the next year or so. So, it'll come down to writing on what you're good at and figuring out whether there are other industries you can explore. The other thing I would say is, again, this is highly specific to how ambitious somebody is. I don't know if you remember Jason, but during COVID, because the beginning part of COVID, there was a bunch of layoffs, right? So, everybody who owned a company, they trimmed down their organization because they went remote, or consumer spending was down, etc., and a lot of those ended up becoming entrepreneurs. They started figuring out, can I start a business of my own? What can I sell? You know, Kajabi, which is one of the companies that I used to work for, we build software for entrepreneurs. So, you can sell coaching products, you can sell podcasts, you can sell newsletters. So, for creators, it was a boom during the COVID times, because people got laid off, and they're like, oh, you know what? I'm just going to become an entrepreneur, be my own boss.

That's right.

And that worked out really well. And if you have skills you can sell, and if you're willing to network and put in the work, I'm sure that people will land on their feet.

I tend to agree with you. Also doesn't matter if I agree or not, but I think in life in general, tell me if I'm underlining this or you have more to say about it, not just career wise, which is what I asked you about, but in life in general, when doors close, or when adversity happens or challenges come up, there's a natural opening somewhere else. There's just that thing that happens, whether it's an opportunity or an opening or something that we didn't see before, like that just seems to naturally happen. It's just so hard to see when you're in the in the face of that storm.

Yeah, yeah. I remember when, when our son was born, we were living paycheck to paycheck. This is during a time when paid maternity leave was like three months or two months or something.

Yeah, sure.

And paternity was like two weeks. I remember those times really, really well. And we were financially not great. We're living paycheck to paycheck, and I was making one of my career moves. So, I was going from manager job to manager job, and nobody was willing to even interview me because I didn't have the experience, right? So, everybody wants some experience as an engineering manager. So, I remember I almost treated my outreach as a marketing campaign. So, I would do research about the hiring manager. I paid extra dollars to LinkedIn so that I can like email them through LinkedIn.

Sure.

I would like email them saying, you know, hey, I understand this about your company, I understand this about your role, this is what I've done, would you consider me? I would find people connected to the hiring manager and just reach out to them and go, hey, I know you're connected to this hiring manager here, would you be comfortable introducing me to this person, etc.? I reached out to venture capitalists who were connected to everyone. Just random reach out, right? Saying, you know, hey, I'm, Mahesh, I can do this and this and this, like, I’m skilled this way. Even back then, I was writing, not on LinkedIn, but on another platforms and I would send them my thoughts on this is what I think about the world and what I think about engineering and leadership, management, and eventually, I remember Jeff took a chance on me, right? So, Jeff is like, okay, you know, let's talk. You are driven, and you want this job, so let's have a conversation, and he gave me a shot. So, I think again, you know, I would never say that this would work for everyone, but you know, if you're willing to ask for help, I think most people will help out. That is what I've come to understand in life, and all you have to do is sometimes just ask.

That's so true. Yeah, great, great, great insight there. I'd love to move to the subject of your book. You know these tougher conversations, I find as a coaching organization, this topic comes up often, right? As a leader, there are always tough conversations, whether that's feedback, performance improvement plans, sometimes it's tough conversations with your board, with a client, you know? So, I know that there are some very specific items, and I do have specific questions for you, but if I start off with a 10,000-foot view, big idea, what's the big idea of tougher conversations, how would you answer that question?

I try to tie it back to my motivations behind writing this book, like, why I thought this was important. The big idea that popped into my head was, nobody is trained for this, right? So, if you think about, like, how people end up in leadership roles or management roles, you're almost thrown into it. Very few, like, actively learn and grow and get into the role. You know, in my career, I've seen so many cases where people are just like, thrown into the role because there's a need for it, or, like, a battlefield promotion, right? So, like, somebody quit and now the next person who's, you know, in charge, like, becomes the manager.

Yep.

And nobody, like, teaches leaders how to have these conversations. So, the way I process things is I go do something, if I mess up, I kind of write down, what did I mess up? And I kind of leave notes for myself and eventually that became essays that I started giving out to my team. So hey, read this if you have questions about how to tackle a certain situation, and then that eventually became a book. I think the impetus behind this book was there's no training for this anywhere. Like, schools don't teach it, MBA programs don't teach it. In fact, the next book that I'm working on is something along the lines of, if you are in tech and you're considering an MBA, don't do it. Read this instead.

Nice. Well, that would have saved me a lot of money, Mahesh.

Nothing against people who have MBAs, just to be clear. At least in tech, people look at MBAs as a way to open doors to leadership and management.

Understood.

I don't necessarily think that's true. I mean, I think you still need to acquire knowledge.

Yeah.

I'm saying you can acquire knowledge in this way, which is like $95,000 less than what you would end up paying for an Ivy League MBA.

So true. So true. So, let's now dive down into some of the specifics, because I know the coaching questions that we hear, and we help people work through. Again, there's a lot of, let’s call them difficult conversations, crucial conversations, but I'll ask you for some real specific ones just to see what you got on them. So, delivering hard feedback, I just find that leaders, if they have either an under performer or a particular situation that they need to coach around, there's either avoidance, there's beating around the bush, they're sugar coating it to the degree that the person doesn't even realize what's happening, right? And so, what insights would you have in that scenario?

I mean, I've experienced that myself, and that's one of the reasons why that incident is in the book.

Yeah.

And I like to think that there are a lot of managers that end up becoming managers because they have a way around people, right? So, they are very comfortable navigating people. And the easiest trick to get people to like you is flattery, and managers tend to do that quite a bit, and I wouldn't say it's a wrong thing, right? Because you want the team to be like comfortable around you, so, I'm not surprised that managers do it, I do it too, but I think the side effect of that is, when you have to deliver bad news to somebody, then it's gonna be hard for you. So, what I would do, what my recommendation is, always start slow and start with a low temperature inquiry, right? So, say, if Bob is not performing well, you know, Bob has missed a couple of his deadlines, you go to Bob and say, hey, what's going on? You missed these deadlines. You don't have to amp it up to 100 in the first conversation, you just ask, what's going on?

Sure.

Chances are, Bob might have personal issues, he might have some health issues, whatever might be the case. And the thing is, just asking is not enough. You end the conversation with, let's check in in a couple of weeks and make sure this is resolved. And then the next two weeks, if the similar thing is continuing, then you must increase your temperature, right? And this is when if you're a people pleaser like me, you'll have trouble delivering that clearly. So, don't say stuff like, you know it hurts me to say this, or it pains me to say this, or I know you're my friend. Another thing, like, you know, people at work are not your friends. I mean, they are colleagues there. You can absolutely be friends outside of work, but inside, you're a team member. And so, I usually say it as hey, this is the second time this has happened and if this continues, then we might have to have a stronger conversation about potentially a performance improvement plan. And if that continues, then it becomes a performance improvement plan, and then you just follow the standard HR practice. Before it gets to the performance improvement plan, I typically give people an out, and so I say, hey, we're sort of headed into this direction where it looks like we're going to have a serious conversation about a performance improvement plan. Do you believe it is a recoverable situation? And if you don't believe it's a recoverable situation, let's part ways amicably, and we will give you some time to leave and maybe we'll throw in a severance. You don't have to tell your team that you're leaving because of performance reasons; you just say I'm looking for a new job, and once you find a new job, just go and no harm, no foul. And a lot of people just opt into that because it is a lot less stressful for them, and it relieves the pressure on them to find a job after they've been let go, potentially. So, I know it is hard for people in general to turn on the ‘I'm going to get serious here, I'm going to deliver bad news’, but you know, for the sake of your team, for the sake of yourself and for the sake of the person receiving this feedback, you have to be honest, otherwise you'll be in a situation where you have three conversations, soft conversations, somebody will push you to say this is not working, deliver it harder, and then the employee will be surprised.

That's right. Yeah. No, start, start off slow, turn up the temperature, and then what I also heard is clarity.

That's right.

Just be clear. And then what about the opposite direction? You know, we've had a few clients over the years where they need to coach up, so to speak. We only hear one side of the story as coaches, but still, in some circumstances, it seems like, oh, man, like this person above me needs a straightening out or some coaching, and usually there's emotion there. Sometimes anger, resentment, envy, you know, whatever it is. Any types of insights for coaching up and not down?

Yeah, it's one of my favorite topics. So, a few things. I don't know if you ride a motorcycle, Jason?

I have my motorcycle license, so, yeah, let's talk.

Okay, have you ever taken the Learn to Lean Course?

So, there's an M on my license, so I have my motorcycles license. I got the license and at the time, I was a kid right out of college. I didn't have any money to buy a motorcycle, and then I married a woman that said, hey, we're gonna do all kinds of things in life. We're going to do great things. I'd really rather you not ride a motorcycle, because I'd like you to be around for a while. So, I never owned one, but yes, I did take that class. So, anyways.

Okay, so you took that class. So, I took that class too. And if you remember, one of the things they teach in that class is, in the shop, they make you put the bike down and pick it back up, right? So, they say at some point you're gonna have a fall on the road. So, if you don't learn how to pick it up right now in a safe place, you'll struggle on the highway. So, I use that the same with bosses. So, I try to give sort of low temperature feedback during peace times. So, when things are going great between me and my boss, I give them, you know, hey, I don't think this is the right way to do this, or I think this is not the right direction, and see how they respond, right? So, some bosses would be like, okay, yeah, this makes sense, you know, let’s figure out how to fix this. Others will be like, you know, yeah, I hear you, but I made up my mind on this. And yet others will be like, I don't care what you say, right? So, you'll see these different types of bosses, and the first one is the easiest to work with, you know, because they are listening to your feedback. And most of my bosses have been like that. There have been bosses who are, I hear you, but I'm not going to listen to you, because I kind of made up my mind on this. And so few things, like one is, you have to give the feedback, and if they don't agree to it, you have two choices, right? Either you go, okay, I'm going to disagree with the idea and commit, because, you know, there's no point in grumbling about made decisions. I'm gonna commit. If you can’t commit to it, and if that pattern continues, you really have to evaluate whether you can work with this person or not. I tell people who struggle with company decisions, like, you know, we did a layoff in a past life, or we changed an org structure that left with people losing jobs, and some people were not happy with it. They're like, I don't agree with this decision. And I'll say, yeah, I understand you disagree, but if you can't come to terms with this at some point, you'll have to find another job, because it's going to eat away at you internally. So, you have to figure out how to show up the right way. My advice for giving feedback to bosses is to be do it in peace times, early on, and see how they respond to it. And sometimes, if you're a manager, your day to day is tough in general and if you extrapolate that out, your manager's job is probably tougher. So sometimes it’s just blowing off steam, right? So, it is like, why did you not do this? And it could be just, I'm having a bad day.

Yeah, right on.

So, cool off for a bit, let the situation settle, and then reach back out and say, hey, can we get on a call to talk about this? Usually, people who send out angry messages on Slack or whatever, when you talk to them on in person, it’s so much different.

Yeah, always, right? Pick up the phone. That still is good advice today, just like it was pre internet. Just pick up the phone, right?

Yes, just call the person. Tone gets lost in messaging, Slack, etc. If you just type I disagree with this, and it's like, oh crap, like, it looks like this person has serious problems with it, but if you call the person, they might go, you know what? I have some doubts about this, you know? So maybe we should talk about it. That's what they actually meant, right?

Yep.

But again, I think it is important for you to be extremely honest with yourself about your relationship with your boss, because if that's not great, then you will not be successful in that role. You have to decide whether you're gonna commit to this relationship or not.

Yeah, I appreciate that answer. Not just the tactical nature of it, but then the overarching, hey, is there a bigger issue here where I might need to make some changes? The other couple of threads that I heard in there, listeners, and I don't know if you heard this, but this is some my takeaways, and Mahesh, you can correct me along the way there, one is, in all of your answer so far, I've heard a lot of high emotional intelligence. So, starting the temperature low, never starting with high emotion. So, that's like this thread that that I'm seeing, and then also just really being sensitive of the other person's situation, in the other person's shoes, whether you're coaching down or potentially coaching up, is, you know, like I heard you say giving direct feedback to an employee or somebody that reports directly to you, like, gosh, they may have a health issue, a personal thing, whatever. Like going in strong on top of somebody that's dealing with some a diagnosis or something at home, that's probably not going to help situations, but starting off with a low temperature, just to make sure we establish where everybody is, and then raising the temperature. Like, yeah. So good. So good.

Last thing I'll say is, as an executive, I have to put on my capitalistic hat quite a bit. So, for companies who want to make money, I want to make money, we live in the United States, so I totally, totally get that, but I do think in the end, people will remember how you treated them. No matter what the situation, people will always, always remember and in tough situations, people will remember names, times, dates. So, how you show up in those moments, I think will last much, much longer than whatever wins you got for the company or for your team, etc. And because, in the end, I think when you pass away, I don't think your company is going to show up to your funeral. I think the people you touched in a positive way will show up, right? This guy, even though we had our differences, even though he let me go, or even though he was hard on me, but his heart was in the right place, so I think he's an okay dude. That's kind of the vibe that I go for in all my relationships, at work, in personal situations, etc. You know, I'm as capitalistic as they come, but I also know that, you know, in the end, in like, 100 years, what will happen, right? I always think about that when I navigate life.

Yeah, that is such that's such a great note to end on, Mahesh. There's a lot of different directions that we could go, and I don’t know, maybe we'll do a round two one day when you finish that book to shy people away from getting their MBA. We'll have a round two.

Absolutely.

If anything that Mahesh said struck a chord with you, which I know it did me, I took a page worth of notes here, the book is on Amazon right now, “How to Deliver Bad News and Get Away with It”. I did look it up and it’s got a bunch of five-star reviews already, and you've only had it out for a month or two, so, congrats there, but it is very good. Mahesh, I have a feeling people are going to want to look you up and I know you are kind of all over the place, so, where's the best place for people to find you?

The best is Mahesh Guruswamy so my first name, last name.com. So, that's my personal website. It has links to the book, it has links to my LinkedIn, it has links to my sub stack where I write, and also contact information, if you want to reach out to me and talk about coaching, speaking, whatever.

So good, so good. And we'll have links to all that in the show notes. Well, Mahesh, you did it. You over delivered my friend. Thanks for starting with low temperature with me and rising up. We hit some crescendos there, and I really appreciate it, and just appreciate your time and skills and everything that you're doing. So, thanks so much.

Thanks for having me.

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