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Lindon Crow is the Founder of Productive Learning where he and his team are daily helping clients close the gap between potential and actual results, including both objective and subjective matters of importance.

Lindon serves as: Chair, Vistage International where he’s the Chairman for the CEO Peer Advisory Board.

 

In this episode, Steve and Lindon discuss:

  • The idea that self-mastery is achievable through learning and practice, much like playing the piano or mastering a sport.
  • Finding the courage to have the conversations you need to have with yourself about what is really going on inside you and who you want to be.
  • How doing vision work only can set you up for disappointment if you don't tie it back to who you are and how that vision is going to challenge you.
  • Overcoming the simple survival objectives of the Lizard Brain to allow your higher consciousness to take over and make informed decisions for a better life.

 

Key Takeaways:

  • Be that person who helps others think outside the norms.
  • The pursuit of self-understanding, self-awareness, and vision are valuable on their own, but together they lead to self-mastery.
  • The past informs you. The present triggers you. The future guides you. Master these three as they apply to you and you've built a solid foundation to live an extraordinary life.

 

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Connect with Steve and Jason:

 

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Lindon Crow Revisited - Freedom In Self Mastery

I get to do something cool and reintroduce one of the episodes that I did. It's been a couple of years. When I think about these last couple of years, it’s funny how time gets blended together. I want to reintroduce you to my good friend, mentor, and coach, Lindon Crow. From time to time, we get to re-accentuate some of these shows. When I was asked to go back and think about one that was meaningful for me, this one jumped out.

I tell people that I believe my friend Lindon and my mentor, coach, and a person that I've known for many years who helps me on many levels, but this man's probably forgotten more about emotional intelligence than most people will ever know. He's a kind, gentle, super thoughtful, and very deep guy. I think this would be a great one for us to revisit. I hope you get to reread this and get to hang on to some of Lindon's thoughts and words. I hope this creates some insights for you. There you go. Here comes Lindon Crow.

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Lindon, how are you?

Excellent. Thank you.

I am excited about this episode. I planned and prepared. As I do in other episodes, I took a bunch of notes. I had all these questions to ask, and then I have this tendency to take the questions and throw them away because that works better when we speak from our heart, especially with you and I back in 2007.

I would have to take a look through some records or something to see if I could be correlated with a date.

We did that thing together in Chicago back in ‘08, but I'm not entirely sure about that. You get old enough. 2008 seems like so long ago.

It was a pre-economic meltdown in ‘08 and ‘09. It's one benchmark we could go by.

Lindon and I want to invite you into a conversation that we're going to have. Lindon is a fairly remarkable person. Someone that I have not only considered a friend but somebody who's mentored me. I tell people that, “This person's probably forgotten more about emotional intelligence than most people will ever learn.” You were doing this a good ten years before it was even called that and the whole sphere of everything around awareness and all the stuff that you and I are going to dive into but a very extensive background in the field of personal development. That's a question I'm going to ask you. What do you call what you do? Why don't we start with that?

That's a question that we answer differently about every 2 to 3 years, probably for no other reason than to keep it fresh and not have it sound stale. If I go all the way back to the first introduction I had, any workshop, training, or anything that had to do with this work, it was called. It was called back then personal growth workshops or some people would call it motivational.

I never thought that was a particularly good description because we weren't trying to motivate anyone, nor was I going to be motivated. It was more to go to get an understanding that later we had things like mindfulness, transformational growth, and emotional intelligence emerge, but I don't think it's changed all that much in terms of what it is, but how it gets defined and/or labeled by people that gets refreshed every 4 or 5 or maybe something like that.

People walk through this thesaurus and come up with stuff. I like that. I don't think what you've done has changed is what you call it has. I like that freshness and keeping it fresh. We'll dive into that quickly. Irrespective of what you're calling it, that would be fruitful for the readers. Tell what you do and you use modern language that's fresh for what you do and how you do it, etc.

The difference nowadays versus 1980, 1981, 1982, or 1983, when I first started in any professional manner, we understood a lot less back then about how the brain functions, emotions, chemistry, and all of that thing, the neurosciences. What was more the basis of the training and the work was the observational side and probably thousands of years of observations from people who watched human behavior. You can go all the way back to Hindus, early biblical stuff, and everything that talks about people's behavior and trying to manage our emotions and impulses.

These things have been around forever that we have to self-manage in some fashion and that temptation exists in some fashion. Depending on what area you grew up in, how that was accomplished was through sheer willpower, contemplation, meditation, prayer, and asking for help. Where you were in the world and what area you grew up in, you have different ways to do it, but the underlying intent is if we don't get a handle on ourselves, life can be pretty tough.

What it's moved into is a more organized, validated, or substantiated science behind it. I can write much more effective workshops now than I could many years ago because I understand better the mechanisms that are at play, so I can write a course that will be more effective because we can go more to the heart of where the issues lie. What would I call it? I would call it a process for developing self-management, self-understanding, and awareness, which is more at the moment. It is more of a greater ability to envision what you ideally want to identify what matters in a situation, how to pursue that, and not get hijacked by quick reactions that make you feel threatened.

Graphics - Caption 1 - TII 159Self-Mastery: Developing self-management is more of a greater ability to envision what you ideally want to identify what matters in a situation, how to pursue that, and not get hijacked by quick reactions that make you feel threatened.

 

We're going to dive into that. I want to go back a little bit. Maybe we could have started like this. You are the CEO and Founder of a company called Productive Learning. That's changed over time. It used to be Productive Learning and Leisure. My way of describing you, and people have already read this, you teach classes and do courses for people in this field of awareness and this greater ability to think and get to what's real in their life. I'll let you describe that even further, but you do this and you've been doing it since the early ‘80s. You'd done things like you take people all over the world. You'll do these learning vacations. I was on one with you. It was life-changing for me.

I largely have this company because of that event. I know that you're at a stage in your life where you're able to reflect on these decades of this work of teaching these courses and being with people. I'm super excited about having this interview because I'm hoping to draw out some of the key latest and greatest things that you've drawn on over time. I'm interested. Why did you get into this? What drew you into this in the beginning? How did you end up here?

If I go back and give some acknowledgment, which is necessary to my earliest roots, growing up as a kid, what would have gone on back at that time that would have made this in some way, shape, or form, something that would get my attention? When I was growing up as a kid, both of my parents were very influential. My dad was a ten-year NFL All-Pro defensive back and had a great deal of success and was in and around people who had a great deal of success. We're known publicly as superstars.

My mom was ahead of her time, a very bright woman, and introduced me to thinking outside of the social norm in terms of wondering about life. There was a little bit of magic in my mom and there was a great deal of hard work with my dad. I watched this go on. I used to ask my dad, “Why certain people were great at what they did?” He said, “Hard work.” My mom said, “God-given talent.” I didn't think that I knew for sure either one of those. I was hoping for something more magical than that. Hard work didn't sound great. I didn't know if God had given me that talent.

Over the years, in asking, especially my dad would say things about people who had this uncanny ability to manage themselves. He didn't use the word manage. Rise to the occasion would be something he might say, where the game is on the line. There's a second on the clock and they want the ball. They want to take the shot. They're willing to do it. Their focus is such that they typically make it. He spoke with great respect about people like that. I wanted to know what that was.

Moving ahead some fifteen years or so, when I finally sat in a class more by coincidence, somebody explained it for the first time as something that could be developed. It's not just, “You were lucky you were born with it.” That got my attention. As I did more classes and realized that this was something, you could master, the same as you could master an instrument, martial arts, selling, or whatever. It's something that could be focused on worked on and mastered, and that got my attention because I've always been fascinated by people who master things and do things at a point that sound magical.

 

Self-management is something you could master, the same as you could master an instrument, martial arts, selling, or whatever.

When you watch some of the greatest pianists in the world, their hands and music to me, that's magical. I cannot watch and get what they're doing, but I can hear it. I can experience the outcome. I sit in awe of whatever they did to get to a point where they could play like that. That's always fascinated me. If the subject was me, that was pretty compelling.

This is called The Insight Interviews. You already gave me one great insight. I'll probably remind people towards the end. I wrote down, “Be Lindon's mom to others.” You mentioned both your mom and your dad, but it's one thing to revere people who helped people think outside of the norms. It hit me like, “Here's an insight. Go be that to others.” Certainly, you're going to help us think outside the norms for ourselves, but to the degree to which it sounds like you didn't think that was cool. You are in your own career and made a career out of doing what your mom and dad did for you.

I've never never seen it that way. That's cool. Thank you for that.

I didn't get to meet your mom, but I want to help be that for other people. For the record, that is what you do. This idea of mastery, and I let you know piano, sports, or anything like that. I'm curious. It must have started with you. You thought, “If I can do this for me, then maybe I can help other people master themselves.” Your career was born and you've been doing this for a lot of decades.

I like to know a little bit more about that mastery-like. Maybe there are some people reading this going, “It's one thing for a piano, sports, or whatever. How’s that look with human beings?” What does mastering awareness or this thing you're talking about look like? I know it's a fairly big question. What do you mean by that?

I like that question. Liking it means it's fascinating. If it is answered well, you get people great direction. What does mastering mean in that respect with myself and/or with the picture of mastering our human experience here on this planet and what we're capable of doing? Simply put, our personal past informs us, the present triggers us, and the future guides us.

If we can understand ourselves thoroughly, we understand all the influences and that's a little exaggerated when you say all but to make a point, when you can understand what you grew up in, around, and through, who and what influenced you, the decisions you make out of that, how you learn to cope with life, where you felt you were strong or weak, whether true or not, the better you understand yourself and that goes back to the Oracle of Delphi. It's on the subscribed on the temple, Know Thyself.

If you know yourself and your behavior makes sense to you, you'll know why you're reacting and doing what you're doing. That frees you to make choices. If you don't know yourself, then you react without consciousness or awareness and you don't have freedom of will. You're in a reactive mode. Understanding yourself is one of the keys to mastering yourself.

The problem is if you have an understanding of yourself with great depth and that's all, you'll end up being able to understand why you did what you did and why your life is where it's at, then you'll understand why you've chosen the people in your life that you've chosen. You'll understand why you are in the career you're in.

You won't change it. You'll be able to explain it. You have to add some other components. That's where I said, “The past informs you, but the present triggers you.” Another part of self-mastery is developing our ability to be aware of what's going on around us and within us. When we start to feel strongly about something, something gets our attention, we're capable of articulating those feelings. We're capable of articulating the thoughts that are running through our heads and the stories we are telling ourselves.

 

Another part of self-mastery is developing our ability to be aware of what's going on around us and within us.

We're able to point out the thing that occurred in reality that triggered it. We're able to say, “Here's what happened. Here's how I think about that. This is the feeling it creates.” If you're aware, you're very articulate with your thoughts and feelings and what's going on around you, but if you don't have an understanding of yourself, you'll think everything you think is true, it's valid, and you're right. If you combine your understanding of yourself and how it influenced that, the awareness you have, and how the definitions come from the past, you're able to again move yourself to a place of choosing. You can manage over-the-top feelings when you realize they're connected to historical issues that are not true at the moment.

That empowers you to change the course of your life, but it leaves you in a vacuum because the last part of the equation, not necessarily in this order, it's more circular, is the future guide you. If we don't establish a vision, purpose, and mission in life. Let's say we know what's triggering us and why we're sensitive to that, but if we haven't ever asked ourselves, “Now, where do I want to go?” It's difficult in those moments to know what choice to make because we don't know where we want to go, and we know we don't want what we have.

The person who has vision stops at that moment and says, “What matters to me here? What do I want out of this marriage? What do I want from this career? If that's what I want then, what's the behavior and the way in which I should approach this that is most likely to give me that?” When you take understanding yourself, self-awareness, awareness of your surroundings, mission, purpose, and values that matter to you and you combine them, that’s your move towards mastery. That's what self-mastery is. That's the equivalent of practicing the piano all the time.

Shouldn't I stop now? I feel like, “We're done. People ruminate on that for a second.” I know you do this all the time, but that's about as succinct as I've ever heard you say that, and it was meaningful. Thank you. I do not mean to put you on the spot here. That wasn't the whole scope of this, but it does strike me like, I'm wondering for the readers, is it possible for you to give an example of that?

We're not going to say Joe, Susie, or Sally, no names, but could you figure out a way to take an actual instance of how that has manifested in the self for somebody and it might be you or some other way to like take that out of maybe the conceptual? How does it work? Give me an example of somebody who wanted something and you helped them practice mastery. Is there a version of that where you could put it into something tangible?

I don't know if it's tangible, but I suppose maybe what would be most appropriate is for the vulnerable. I’ll share a piece of my own story rather than some metaphorical thing.

You can pick on you with no problem and we know your name.

I certainly can be made fun of, which is probably the thing I should share. First of all, I want to back up a moment. The things I talked about in terms of self-understanding, self-awareness, and vision, you don't need to necessarily pursue each one of those independently, nor do you need to pursue them in any particular order. It's three pieces of a pie. If any piece of the pie missing, you don't have the whole thing, but you can have any piece of it or you can have all three pieces on the plate at the same time and go back and forth from bite to bite. I haven't found anything that says, “You got to do it this way.”

I want you to get to your story. I've talked to you about this. We've talked about vision because there are a lot of books and we read Simon Sinek does this thing on Find Your Why. There are a lot of people talking about it, even Jim Collins about audacious goal vision. If you miss the other two pieces of the pie, working on the vision you have told me in the past is a little incomplete. It’s not that there's anything wrong with that. It's hard to do vision without going through what triggers you and what's in your past. Do I have that right?Graphics - Caption 2 - TII 159

My experience over many years now in working with people and not all the time, but on occasion, just on vision, mission, or purpose, is that if that's all they want to work on because it can be uplifting, feel good, and inspiring, is there are people who are setting themselves up for some of the biggest disappointments and frustrating reactions. As they pursue it, being unaware of how their past is influencing their behavior and the things that are triggering them, their history and makeup can get the better of them, causing either failure or frustration in the pursuit of their vision.

What I see happen often is it's pretty sad because then people give up on the vision, thinking it's not possible. It's not for them. They're not capable. They go into some self-deprecating thinking, and that's not the case. They pursue the vision without enough self-understanding and manage themselves during tough times. You take a vision and sum it up. It is a bit audacious, which means you're going to fail from time to time in your pursuit. You're going to hit some walls where you're not quite capable yet to get there. Without understanding your past, you may come to an assessment or a conclusion about why. That's very self-limiting and not true. I'm hesitant to do vision work only if you don't tie it back to who you are and how that vision is going to challenge you.

I interrupted you from your story. I want you to get back to that, but couldn't we just do what you did with vision with any of the three components if you focus on what triggers you without any sense of direction or if you focus on what went on in the past or whatever? I think that's what you meant.

If you want a silly metaphor, if you took a spoonful of flowers, baking soda, sugar, and raw egg and all of those by themselves would probably be pretty unappealing. Blend them all together, put enough, and have a cookie. It's great. There are some things that by component, don't add up to much but put together, they become powerful.

 

There are some things that, by component, don't add up too much but put together, they become powerful.

You've got me salivating like some Pavlovian dog. Way to go. Don't do that. I want a cookie.

It's something that a lot of people can relate to because it's fairly common out there. I'm about ten years old and my parents are splitting up. They end up getting divorced. At the time, I was a bit bewildered, confused, and upset. There’s the loss of stability and feelings of vulnerability. I'm a 10 or 11-year-old kid, and I'm a mess. I didn't know this at the time. I know I'm not happy, but there's chaos around it.

I'm going to jump ahead a little bit, but what I came to understand later is how I was showing up every day at school with friends in the classroom was affected by this. The way I would put it is I was a little bit weird for a while. Kids don't know what to do with a kid that's not happy. Ten-year-olds don't know what to do with the kid who's sitting there sad. They say, “Come on,” and go, “I don't want to,” and they go, “Okay.” Pretty soon, you're not invited.

I'm going through a tough time. I don't understand what's happening. What I do start to notice is that I'm no longer included, invited, and part of all the friends that were in this tight neighborhood gang. I feel on the outside looking in. I feel left out and unwanted. I was carrying all those feelings around without any real knowledge or validation of its truth. It's because it's how I was feeling and I was projecting it onto everything.

Families get divorced. Things happen. Kids get bummed. They get scared and bewildered. I had my share of that. I come out of it. I feel the only way that I can keep myself included with my friends is to perform well because I was a good little athlete. If I could still get base hits, scored, or whatever, that would keep me included.

Let's take that little piece of my history. I roll forward. I find myself years later where I feel insecure on the outside, not wanted as part of the group unless I can perform well. That can keep me in. Unless I can do whatever, in this case, I was sports-oriented and let itself to sports, but later it became any area of performance. As soon as I saw any group and any people do anything to which I was not invited, I immediately came to the conclusion that I was not wanted and liked. I feel very insecure, left out, sad and lonely.

If I don't know myself, I think that when I'm thinking about my fellow colleagues at work or my friends on the sports team or whatever, I think what I'm thinking is true. They don't want me. I don't realize I'm being informed by my past. I think that my assessment of what's going on is true, and then I react with the same reaction I had that worked when I was a kid. I'll work harder, provide more, create more success, and contribute more, but all with the feeling of insecurity. I don't have a vision for myself at this point. All I have is I don't want to feel bad and sad, and I want to be included.

I've lost any vision. I'm completely caught up in the moment of trying to relieve myself from this sadness. I began to understand this about my history. I'm simplifying this. There are other parts of my history that are also influential. Let's say this piece and I'm keenly aware when those feelings pop up in me. I go, “That's interesting. Look at that.” I have that lonely, sad, and unwanted feeling. What triggered that? What happened that that would flush up into me?

Sometimes there's a trigger in the world. Something happens. Sometimes, a thought popped in my head and they grabbed hold of me and I couldn't even tell you where it came from. I can say, “It's going on. I feel and define this way because of my history. I don't know what is true here. Let me stop and look. Let me ask. Let me invite a conversation that I've never invited when I was a kid. Who do I want to be? What do I know is true? What do I believe in life? What's the bigger picture that's not all about me, that I've come to understand when I step back and look? How do I want my life to go? How would I need to be if that's where I wanted to go?” Now I have a direction for myself.

Between the conversations that I create that I would have never created when I was younger through the actions that I take that are considerably different than when I was younger, my life takes a completely different track. I end up with completely different types of results, ones that are more consistent with the vision I have for myself instead of a replay of my history.

My self-management has led me to a more extraordinary life. The better I do that, the more I move towards some level of competency or effectiveness. Let's say that my sense of it is still out there in the future for me somewhere. The better life goes, and I'm free of the negative influences of my past. I'm not free of them coming up as feelings or thoughts, but I'm free of them dictating how my life goes.

I am coming out of my skin. I don't know how to describe that any better. I want to stop and go. I have many questions. There are many possible insights that people could have. First of all, thank you for being vulnerable enough to share that story. Maybe vulnerability and transparency are a part of this growth. Secondly, I want to stop and have people reflect on this idea about that conversation that you were willing to have and that freedom is the conversation it could produce because while people don't have your exact story, and like you said, a lot of people do go through divorce, it doesn't matter what you went through. It's fairly impossible probably to get their childhood without the trauma of some kind. Who doesn't have that?

I don't think it's possible to go through childhood without forming ideas about yourself, life, people, and strategies to deal with it that later become dysfunctional and completely inappropriate for an adult. Divorce, alcoholism, drug abuse, distant and absent parents, playgrounds, and school systems that failed to provide great models are all over everywhere. It's life. It's not bad. That's life.

I have 20 questions for you and we've gotten to 1. Thank you very much. I know we don't have a whole lot of time here. The one question that is hitting me hard in this that I love to have you address with people is you have this freeing conversation. Maybe you'd learned about this through your workshops, but if this conversation is freeing and the way that you describe it that you have this thing happen, you get triggered and you go, “Look at that.” You have this third-party way of viewing that. It's this freeing conversation where you can make sense of something. If this is freeing and it led to many good things in your life, which I know it did, why do you suspect this doesn't happen more?

You’ve shared this from the work you do and the angle you take on it. It's not a primary function of the brain to take risks. It's more of a primary function of the brain to avoid the risk. That conversation has risk inherently in it. Most people's view or sense is that the avoidance of the conversation is more likely to avoid risk than having the conversation. Our natural inclination is to save ourselves from the pain of possible failure or whatever that might come.

 

Our natural inclination is to save ourselves from the pain of possible failure or whatever that might come.

I'll give you a simple example, slightly off the topic but the same thing. A lot of people have some workout schedule or thing they do. Oftentimes, you'll talk with them, especially people who are struggling to keep it consistent that as they drive home and they're supposed to stop at the gym, they're going to do this workout or on the way how much chatter goes on in their head to talk them out of it?

Oftentimes, that chatter wins. Later, they oftentimes feel some regret and make a new commitment to doing it tomorrow. The funny thing is I have yet to ask somebody who went ahead and did their workout, finished it, and said, “Let me ask you, do you regret having done your workout?” Nobody regrets it. We know time after time that if we do it, we will feel good afterward, yet we have some picture of what's ahead of us that we were avoiding. Conversations are like that. What we tell ourselves it's going to be like and what it ends up being like don't ever line up. We don't seem to get that lesson.

I want to ask you why do you think that is. You've had much experience with this. You describe that. I can't imagine readers going, “That's me.” If it happens repeatedly, what is it about us that you don't think all of a sudden wakes up and says, “I always feel good after this?” Do you suspect that that initial conversation is scary for people and that the fear of having that internal conversation is greater than any weight of the positive net benefit of the thing after?

I hope this doesn't mislead the readers because there are pieces that support it, but I would put it this way. Our world that every little baby is born into encourages the use of our primal brain over our intellect because, in the very beginning, our higher consciousness is still empty. In other words, we don't have language or concepts. We've learned nothing yet. The only thing that's fully functional is the primal brain.

The lizard brain is fully formed and ready to play, but the thing we might call higher consciousness, rational brain, or intellect is not yet developed. We enter the world and we are conditioned to rely on the lizard brain. That stays true for a long time so much so that I believe that it becomes the habituated mode in which we engage life. To shift the operating system as to which part of us is in charge, which part is the boss, and which part takes the orders?

Most people, in their lives, with the lizard brain giving orders and the rational brain justifying what's being done, whereas when we have freedom is when we put our higher consciousness in charge and give direction to the lizard brain. The reason this is hard is that it depends on what sides you're reading, first communion, age reason, or some other scientific thing, but let's say somewhere between 0 and 8 to 0 and 15, 16, or 17, our lizard brain rules. Now, all of a sudden, we want to have a life that is guided by our higher consciousness when we've had some 15 or 20 years of indoctrination with a reversal of that order of cruising charge. It is a big challenge and a worthy one.

My colleague, Steve Long, talks about this idea that it requires so much courage. I have to tell you that we don't have to do this in all one episode. We should probably sign off here. There's something that has to happen to people externally that causes them to have the courage to have that conversation. As you said, it takes a boatload of courage to come against those operating systems.

I always talk about the lizard brain like it's this thing. It's us. When we reverse that thing, it feels like we're coming against us, which in my view, does not promote survival. You're not coming against something external but you're having to have that meaningful conversation with something internal. You try to simplify things. It's scary, all the goodness that comes as a result of it, which you think is worthy. That's why you do what you do for many people. They maybe don't get past the fear of doing that and then succumb back to, “I just live.” Am I saying that right?

I’m not worried too much about whether it's right or not. You are describing an experience most people have a question that if anyone sits down for a moment or two, you would say, “Why is it so hard?” You'll see that in some great literature, movies, or whatever where somebody sits down and says, “Why is it hard? Why can't it be easier?” That's a question for the universe. What's going to space out for your audience is the TED Talk about why by Simon Sinek.

That was a great little piece right there. He brilliantly captured that idea. There are many other places you can go where philosophers, scientists, and people who observe human nature have noticed that an individual, company, or sports team doesn't have a why, that doesn't have something out there that, for some reason, has captured their heart and mind, that means something to them that they want.

If we don't have that, then when we face tough times, it's difficult to see any reason why we should put ourselves through such a difficult time because we don't have an outcome where the ROI is worth it. One of the beauties of vision and not just vision or picture, but the purpose, the why behind it, values, and the rules you need to follow to make sure it's meaningful to you. When you can put that together in a way that you can hardly talk about without feeling inspired, that's a powerful and necessary tool, at least as far as I can see. I've not found anything different or more effective to help us do those times when we're trudging through difficult situations. It's what carries you.

Graphics - Caption 3 - TII 159Self-Mastery: When we face tough times, it's difficult to see any reason why we should put ourselves through such a difficult time because we don't have an outcome where the ROI is worth it. 

 

I didn't think that I would get this many insights. We have to cut it. I have no doubt that this will be Volume 1, 2, and 3 provided that you would be willing to do that with us. I sure am grateful for our time. Thank you for taking the time to be with us. I figured you and I would end up fairly quickly in the deep end of the pool, but the courage that you have and the willingness to share is fantastic.

It’s my pleasure. The best to you and all your team. I love your team. They are great people.

Thank you. If people want to reach out to you, I wanted to promote the idea of Productive Learning in San Clemente, California. If you, as a reader, are interested in a course or something, that is ProductiveLearning.com.

That would get you started.

They are amazing people and teachers. Please reach out to them if any of what they do is interesting. They've got many amazing classes. I've been through a few of them and it's life-changing. Lindon, thank you very much. I wanted to say before we sign off that I was trying to take many notes, but the key 2 or 3 things that I'm walking away with is, “Be Lindon's mom to others.” Not to disrespect your dad, but the way you described your mom is like, “I want to be that person to other people.” Don't just work on vision. There's a triangulated thing. I'm going to go back and reflect on those three things.

Lastly, my big a-ha, my insight was that courage for me and I got to imagine, you too. It's not one time having that conversation, especially with those initial thoughts. It takes courage to have that conversation, but the fruit of what could happen as a result of it is wonderful. Those were my big insights. As we always end here, these were my insights. It doesn't matter what my insights were or Lindon’s. What matters is what yours are.

 

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