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Karl Becker has founded and run numerous companies over the last 30 years and now runs Improving Sales Performance, a consultancy that supports sales organizations in building high-performing teams and achieving their revenue goals. He is the author of Set up to Win: Three Frameworks to a High-Performing Sales Organization, Sales & Marketing Alignment and Iceberg Selling. He has a BA in economics from Colorado College and an MBA from the University of Colorado, Boulder.

 

In this episode, Steve and Karl discuss:

  • Practices for Presence
  • Helping Build High-Performing Sales Organizations
  • Introduction to Iceberg Selling
  • The Four Mindsets of Sales
  • Authenticity in Sales

 

Key Takeaways:

  • Discover how authenticity can be your secret weapon in boosting sales
  • Overcome sales challenges with strategies to defeat negative beliefs
  • Implement techniques to maximize presence and focus on your sales interactions
  • Comprehend the immense value of deep, genuine connections within your sales efforts
  • Unravel the mysteries of Iceberg Selling, going beyond what meets the eye in sales exchanges

 

“If we can find self-awareness and improve upon whatever is in our life that needs work, then we can be more powerful for ourselves.” –
Karl Becker

Connect with Karl Becker:

 

Connect with Steve and Jason:

 

Listen to the podcast here:

Steve and Karl- What are you playing for?

Hello, everyone, and welcome to The Insight Interviews- Powered by REWIRE. This is your host today. This is Steve Scanlon. I am the host. Jason's not with us today, but I am, and today I have a very special guest, someone that I'm really excited about. I get to not only interview these people, but I get to do some research on people and I get to interview a gentleman today who's I think going to be incredibly relevant for so many people that listen to our podcast, very unabashedly into helping us become better salespeople and sales leaders. So, with no more waiting, Insight interview world, say hello to Karl Becker. Karl, say hi to the insight interview world.       

 

Hello everybody. I'm really excited to be here. I think just being able to kind. Of share insights is always valuable, always going to learn from each other. So, I am really appreciative to be here today with you. Yeah.

So great to be here. So yeah, we'll dive in and I'm pretty sure I say some semblance of this, Karl, to all of my guests. I could certainly go off and find a bio of yours and read it and talk about the books that you've written and the one that's coming out, what you get to talk about and just all the various things. I always find it more interesting when you do that. Like you just get to tell us about who you are, and I get to ask that. But before we get there, here's my question for you today, and this has been something of a norm here on our show. I want to know what you're grateful for?

I've given that a lot of thought, and I think with my coaching practice and running different companies and going into organizations, I oftentimes kind of think that as a way to check myself. And I'm somebody that growing up as a kid, I don't know if any of the listeners are going to kind of relate to this, but I just never felt like things fit for me. As an entrepreneur, I wanted to get out and make things happen. I never wanted to stay in school. I have an MBA, though. I did all the right things, but you know, growing up, learning was super tough for me. And as I got older, I have two boys, one of them shows up one day and the teacher has sent home a note and they're like, we think maybe your son has vision problems or something like that. Let's start there. We'll fast forward. He comes home from an assessment one day and we find that he has stealth dyslexia. And I start to research what that is and oh, my God. It kind of hit me in the face. I was like, that's me. That's why learning was always so hard- why I didn't fit into the kind of way of processing learning, kind of moving through the systems, our community, our worlds built. I always had to kind of figure out things on my own and piece. It together from what I saw and heard and experienced. And as much as that was really hard growing up and I always felt kind of like I didn't fit because I'd stand up and I'd have to read out loud, we probably remember that, and people would laugh, I think what it really did that I'm grateful for is it enabled me to see people for who they were because for me to start building friendships, it kind of started with the kids that were on the peripheral of popularity. And so, being able to start seeing people for who they were as a young age and connect and find common ground has served me beautifully as I've gotten older. Obviously all accidental. Was it by design? So, as much as if I went back to relive those days, I would say no way. I think what it did for me is enabled me to be somebody that does meet people where they are, learn what they're about, be present and learn in different ways. So, I'm grateful for that challenge I had ever since I was a little kid.

I'm just listening to that Karl, and I'm thinking to myself, I hate to do this to you because we're both coaches, so I'm not going to coach you. But before we even get into who you are and why you're on our show, I’m going to repeat that back because I want to make sure I got it, which I've never done with somebody on the show.

I appreciate it.

We do that in coaching. Right? I'm not doing that as a technique. Did I just hear that right? You're grateful for the fact that you likely had this ailment that your son has, and the gratitude is because, and these are my words, it made you more empathetic because of the struggle that you had to have early on? Do I have that right? Like, you're able to see people, and if somebody brought to the table something that was less than in the norm, you got it and you were able to connect with that, and so that's a gratitude of yours.Did I have that right?

You nailed it. And the yes/and there is oftentimes, as I've gotten to where I am today and I'm either coaching an executive or a salesperson or a team, oftentimes I'm able to kind of quiet the room, quiet that persons mind and get to know who they are and what they're really about. And when that happens, possibility usually shows up. And that possibility wasn't there before because of anxiety or frustration or just, like, going too fast or skipping or whatever it is, not staying present in the moment with that individual and what they're playing for, what they're all about. So, yeah, as kind of challenges as it sounds, I'm really grateful that it was so damn hard as a kid. I also grew up in a really academically powerhouse family, so I didn't fit at home, because I wasn't the little genius. I wasn't the kid making straight A's.

Well, I suppose that's on how you define genius.        
            

Yeah. Once I said that, I was like, wait a minute. But, yeah, it was another situation where I didn't feel accepted for who I was, because I couldn't live up to those standards. So, yeah, I'm really grateful for that pain and those experiences because I think I was able to flip that around, and realize that I was special, that I have confidence, I have a lot to give. And therefore, when I meet somebody that they might not be in the mean or the norm or whatever we want to say, they've got their own way they see the world, I'm actually able to appreciate that, help them see that as well. Whereas I think if growing up in, school was easy for me, I might have blown right past that, and I don't think I could impact people as well. So, yeah, you were right.        
            

Thanks for repeating that. I got to imagine that that will really touch a lot of people. Right. This could get super philosophical, but what is that norm, anyway? I think a lot of people feel that because maybe what we considered norm, whether it's normal academically or whatever Karl, maybe that's all a facade anyway. Wouldn't it be interesting in the end if you were the one that was in touch with reality and the norm- but again, that's super philosophical and we don't maybe have to go there quite yet. But anyway, I'm grateful for your gratitude. I think that's really cool. You also said something and we're going to get to who you are here, I promise. Maybe towards the end of the show we'll talk about who you are.

I'm loving what we're talking about. I am smiling right now, and I'm glad we're in it. We're talking about what's real in my world.

Well, you had made a comment about when you work with people, when you're able to help them be still and be present, I think was the word that you used. And so, one of the questions I had is before we dive into you and do you do that and for yourself personally, what are some of your practices for being still, being present and being quiet?

Yeah. Wow. I wish I could say I was excellent at that. I think that's one of those things where I'm always on that journey. But for me, I'm pretty good at understanding what my body's telling me, whether it's I'm physically feeling tight and I need to do yoga or stretch or work out, or this is one that always gets me, and maybe some of you have had this experience but when my dad would get really frustrated with me, he would get really short, and there was a tonality in his voice, and there still is when he gets upset with me. But what I'll find is if I'm frustrated and I'm redlined and unfortunately, it's the people you care about the most that sometimes you're able to - you show up so intense because you know, it's probably safe deep down, but I'll hear myself say something to my son, one of my sons, or my wife, or even sometimes a client I'm close to, and the sharpness of my voice will sound a lot like my dad's. That always would trigger me. So, for me, the first thing is, other than the proactive piece, I'm going to say this is kind of more the self-aware piece of that, hear myself say things a certain way or the way I respond feels like maybe Karl from the past was younger and I didn't kind of have some personal breakthroughs or my body's tense. I just can't feel comfortable, or I find that I'm not listening to people very well and I feel like I'm doing all the talking. These are clues where it's like, okay, I am not present. There's something I need to deal with to get back centered. So, that's kind of like when the alarm bells are going off. The other way is just kind of from a basic professional how I manage my day, I try to time block. I try to make sure I have, time throughout the week that's mine and that I get to choose to do what I want with so that I'm not just in this frenetic one to the next. The typical things, I talk through things a lot. I'm a talker when I process and giving myself some quiet space, whether it's a walk or yoga or just it could even be drivig with my youngest son, he's learning to drive. He's kind of an introvert, and we might sit for ten minutes not talking at all, and five minutes later, we are have an amazing conversation. We don't just have to be talking all the time.        
            

That's so good. It's so funny. Thank you for that again. When I was listening to you and you said you have this somatic, like, this body bodily, you're pretty good at that. And you said, you know, when you're- what's the phenomenon like when someone yawns and you yawn? Right. Though those are the neurons. As soon as you said yoga, I found myself bending over and stretching out my back. I was like, he said yoga? And I was like, hey, I wonder if I'm a little tight. I started yawning with your yawn. So great. Thank you again for that. And you have me at the awareness piece, right?  When you hear yourself, when I heard you say that, I'm like, well, you're already winning because you're listening to yourself, which is a whole trick. Like, maybe we all need to just listen a little better at ourselves. That's one of my favorite bumper stickers I saw recently. It said, don't believe everything you think. I just thought that was really brilliant, right? Because then we have to listen to ourselves.

You just triggered a little story for me. I don't know if you're open to me taking that.

Yeah, fire away fire away. We may never get to why you're here or who you are, but, yeah, fire away.

Who cares, who cares?

Yeah, fire away.

So what I'll do when I'm working with a client, whether I'm running a meeting or a one to one, we're on Zoom most of the time, and I've got a screen up. We kind of have a loose agenda we're following, but one of the ways I process information, it must be this, and it also is of service to the client, is I'm typing as we go. I know people have AI right now, and it's transcribing everything. I'm literally taking notes in the document. Everyone can see the screen. Now, didn't you say you're dyslexic? Yeah, sometimes it's a little bit of a challenge, but luckily there's autocorrect, and I think I have this muscle memory of spelling now, but the point is, I'm taking notes, and so I'm coaching this one guy, and he's a salesperson that I keep trying to get him to go below the surface to learn more about what a client is about, like who they are, what's their world like. I don't want to know whether you're going to close it or not. Can you tell me what their world's like? And he usually can't because he always in transaction mode. So, what transaction mode looks like to him is he just starts talking and talking and talking and talking and talking, and it's like, I don't know how he's breathing and talking because it'll go for minutes. So, we're in one session, and I had been telling him, kind of giving him some coaching around, like, hey, can you listen more? These are some open-ended questions, try to relax into it. Kind of some basic things that as salespeople we've probably heard before. And next thing I know, I have two pages that I've been typing, and I look at him and I said, hey, this just dawned on me. Can you look at the screen?

Yeah.

I just transcribed personally two pages of what you had to say, and you didn't give me one chance to react or ask a question. This is what we're talking about. And he was like, whoa. And I think him being able to have that self-awareness that here's this person that just literally typed what he said for two pages kind of gave him that awareness that, yeah, maybe I come in here and I just start talking, and I don't breathe, and I don’t check in, and why is that happening? So, that kind of opened up the door of what might be causing you to do that from your past? But with all these things, back to kind of how we took this little detour, I think as humans, if we can find the self-awareness of whatever is in our life that we want to improve upon or just be more aware of, that dashboard for us, that control panel, if you will, and we can imagine it, then we can be more powerful for ourselves.

                                                                                                             
"I think as humans, if we can find the self-awareness of whatever is in our life that we want to improve upon or just be more aware of, that dashboard for us, that control panel, if you will, and we can imagine it, then we can be more powerful for ourselves."


That's so great. Well, I have a lot of questions around that, but before we get to. Any more of my questions, would you mind giving us a thumbnail of Karl Becker? I guess you'd go back to first grade or whatever, but the relevanc. You're a pro in the sales leadership and coaching thing, and certainly we want to get there, but I'd love to hear a little bit about you and just give us the Reader's Digest of Karl Becker, if you don't mind.

Sure. I think I'll start with one of the things that I say frequently is. I think I'm a creator. I think most people that sell with ideas and help people co create, most entrepreneurs, we're artists, we're creators. And the reason I say that is because we come up with something that we think will make something better or solve a problem. And then as salespeople, we shop that idea. We bring that idea into the world. And if people start to say, yeah, I want that, the next thing you know, you have a business. So, I've always seen myself as an entrepreneur and a creator. It gets back to when I was a kid, how I learned. I had to go and do it myself. I had to get my hands dirty to figure out the answers, because certainly reading it wasn't going to do it for me.

Right.

Because that was always a challenge. And so, I was the little kid that thrived on connection. I can remember my sister was maybe in third or fourth grade, and I grew up in Wichita, Kansas, and she had to sell some Girl Scout cookies, and this was before people kind of camped out at the Home Depot. And so, I was like, let's do it. And she's like, what do you mean? You're not a Girl Scout. I'm like, let's do it. And so, we spent two or three days for three or 4 hours going around the neighborhood and everywhere. And I just would knock on doors and talk and smile, and people would buy Girl Scout cookies. And we sold the most in the city I grew up in, and she got a scholarship to a camp, and we ended up giving it to one of her friends because she didn't want to go. But I think that something about me.  I just have always wanted to get in and make it happen. And so, my professional career has been like that. I have had numerous companies. Many of them ended up not working out very well. But I learned a hell of a lot from that, and I take all those experiences forward. And others did really well. And so, for me, what am I about? Who am I? I'm an idea person that loves to connect. I love to support people. I love to see an idea come to life. And I think that's what's so amazing about where I am today. I kind of became an accidental consultant. I was at a company where we were doing outbound sales for other companies so you would hire us, and we had to kind of have teams of SDRs and BDRs and make sure they had processes of following the training, and we were going into these companies, and I started to find all these issues, all these foundational pieces missing. And I said, I think I have this backwards. I don't think people should be hiring us to do things for them. They should be hiring us to come in and help them learn how to do this. When that switch kind of happened, it was really amazing. I went into this organization, I started kind of working the process out of the gate, and what I found that I started doing more than anything was solving individual and teaming problems and acting a lot more like a coach and a therapist and a guide and a mentor. And about a year or two later, I was working with this person that I write with, who's like my writing partner, ghost writer, whatever you might want to say, and we were going through my first book, Set Up to Win, and I was like, it's process. It's this, it's this.And they looked at me and they. Said, you know, you're all about change, and helping people navigate change and growth. This is what this book is about. All your processes and steps. I mean, yeah, they need that. But the magic is in how you see people and how you bring that forward. So, to kind of pull this full circle. What do I do? I run a company called Improving Sales Performance. I'm a keynote speaker. I run workshops. I deal with a lot of the SMB, the small mid-sized businesses. I will come in, sometimes as a fractional leader, sometimes as an advisor to kind of solve a high-level strategic problem, sometimes as kind of a copilot to the person running the sales organization to run workshops and do some one to ones, and just make sure we're clear where we want to go and that we're going to get there. And over time, I've built a team that kind of has the same core values and same methodologies that I've kind of stumbled upon or built from the school of hard knocks and getting your hands dirty. And so that's what we do. We come in and we help people build high performing sales organizations and we feel like those foundations and investing in people and how they team is what creates that growth every CEO really wants, but it's sustainable growth. It's not just a flash in the pan.

Great synopsis. A lot there. Yeah, so much I'm like, okay, I told you I didn't have a lot of questions. I listen now. I've got more than I know what to do with. I bit off more than I could chew here, brother. The two books that you've written both set up to win and alignment, sales and marketing alignment, even in setup to win three frameworks to a high performing sales organization. The book that you've got coming out. If I understand correctly, iceberg selling, if I just step back the word selling, whether it's in the actual title or in the subtitle sales, you're in sales performance and sales leadership and sales training, I think.

Yeah, that's right.      
            

Because coaching and development and that's even broader, right? You could coach someone to develop software or whatever, but sales seem to be the fabric, right?

That's the sandbox, if you will, for sure.
            

Yeah. So, I know you've been on a lot of podcasts, you've written books, you're out there, you speak about all this stuff and we don't have a lot of time, and so, I guess one of the questions I want to ask you is what question, when you get it on a podcast about the work that you've done in Sales and Sales Leadership and Training and coaching in this stuff, what's the most exciting and heartfelt- what do you hope I ask you about most?        
            

It's so top of mind right now for me is Iceberg Selling and a lot of people have said, how did this come about and what is it about and what's the like, why did you write it? What is it supposed to do? So, I think that would be a question I'd be excited to answer, if that's okay.
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You know what, Karl, why did you write this and what is it designed to us? Tell us a little bit about Iceberg. It does sort of remind me of, I've actually written a couple books myself. And the one that you love is that's recency bias, right? David Kahneman would be like, that's my favorite because it's coming out and you're excited about it. So certainly, tell us about Iceberg selling, what's it about, why'd you write it, and what are people going to get. As a result of reading it.

Yes. Thank you. So, the first two books are very framework foundational books. And as an author, I'd even say while they have fun stories and lessons and things that you can practically very practical implementation, they are kind of heady. And I think for me, they allowed. Me to kind of create that foundation. For myself of how I wanted to be in the world. So, I've been going on this journey for years, working with individuals and teams, and I think a lot of times I'll talk to a salesperson, I'll be like, well, just find ways to create more value for people. And this one sales guy was like, yeah, I'm doing that. I’m like, well, what are you doing? He's like, well, I call the people that said they want to buy all the time, and I go, are you ready yet? And if you are, I'm here for you. And so, I said, that's really not of service. That's not really creating value. And so, I started to realize that, wait a minute, there might be some things that I'm taking for granted that really aren't as common as I think they are. And I started to kind of reverse program, you know, what is it that I do? How do I sell? How do I consult? Why do I connect with people? And what are the things that I've gleaned from working with salespeople? And I was like, you know what? Instead of writing a heady framework book, I'm going to write a book that's fast, easy, casual rea. Any salesperson, even if they're not readers, they're going to pick it up, they're going to listen to it, and they're going to be laughing, and before they know it, they're learning and they're excited. And so, I really wrote this book to help salespeople read something that was intentionally built for them, that could give them, even if they took two or three jewels from there, it would accelerate them. It would help them get what they want. And so, the whole premise is everyone, every deal, every company, every person you talk to, even yourself, your teammates, we're all icebergs. And if you're a seller and you're talking to somebody that wants to buy something or let's not even say they're bottom of the funnel, there's somebody that's just interested in having a conversation with you, my experience is you only typically see 10% of what's going on, and iceberg is only 10% above the surface is visible. The other 90% is underneath. Think of the movie Titanic, right? How can I just even with a simple analogy. Say, hey, salespeople, you want relationships, you want to build rapport. You get jazzed through connection. Guess what? You can get a lot more connection.

                                                                                                             
"You can solve a lot more problems if you see more of what's going on. I just want you to start to think about the next person you meet as an iceberg and get creative on how you can start to discover what's underneath. So, as you start to discover what's underneath, you can do the job that you really want to do. The thing that really fills you up, which is provide some solutions that you think can be of service to this person."

And so that's the really high-level premise. There's a lot of other details in the book that I love, but just to kind of see if you don't have any other questions or you want to explore, that's the whole premise. I wanted something that would impact salespeople. And I love salespeople. I even start the book with that. I love salespeople. We make the world go round. We put presents under the tree. We make payroll, we enable the economy and a lot to happen. So that's my short answer. I wanted to impact group of people that I think really make a difference.

I love that your other books, you referred to them, you gave them an adjective, you said they were a little heady, you were trying to be nice to your own work there. And as you were talking, I wrote down, I wonder if this book isn't a little more hearty? Right from the heart. You went from heady to hearty and obviously it's a combination of both, but that when you talk about something that would just touch people and like, I don't know, kind of felt like -

You nailed it. That's awesome.

Yeah, well, again, I'll be sending you a bill for that- marketing- just kidding. You can swipe, adapt, give me no credit at all. Whatever. I love that you mentioned one or two gems. If that's what they can take away, that's fine. It sounds like the book's probably got lots of those as you talk about the heart felt and I love your enthusiasm for sales. How often we find people that they're trying to figure out scripts and different things to get out of being what they are. And here you are going, no, we make the world go round. And that's just such a beautiful approach to it. What are one or two, you know, again, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but give me like one or two gems from the iceberg. What would be one little two little takeaways that when I read it, I'm like, yeah, that's just so great.

Well, I tell you what, I'll give you three, but the third is going to be fast. So, the book opens up with kind of, hey, you're a salesperson, you make the world go around, like we just said. And then it asks a simple question - what are you playing for? And the reason I ask that is I think sometimes in sales we get lost. We might have a sales manager or a sales leader that's just like sales, sales, sales. Revenue, revenue, revenue. And we kind of get tunnel vision and we get obsessed with the deal or the bottom of the funnel or what can we do? And that's when all the tactics come, you know, is there a discount, multi-year terms, whatever it might be, right? But I think if, as salespeople, kind of like you said awareness at the beginning of our podcast, if you can become aware of what you're playing for, then that kind of becomes your battery that keeps you going or even maybe like your compass. Like, why am I doing this again? And it might be as simple as you want to put your kids through school or you're taking care of your parents, or you just like to win, or this is the path for you to have economic freedom. Whatever it is for you, it's important to know that. So, I think that's the table stakes of the book is like, let's get clear on why we're even doing this, and then own it. The book then explores four mindsets and I’m going to list them out, but I'm going to tell you the one that I love the most. The first one is lifetime value. I think sometimes we get stuck in the deal and not all the deals. You know what I mean? The second one is being of service. I think if we can, as salespeople, kind of go, how do I get outside of just the transaction, and I think about how can I be of service to someone? What does that look like? What's that extra thing that I could provide them that shows that I'm thinking about them and then I get their world. Then I'm going to push the next two together. It's kind of two sides of the same coin- ownership mindset and drivership mindset. It's all about if you can be responsible for your own life and in sales step up and not say, oh, I'm not going to do this until my sales manager tells me or I got this lead that came in and I can help them, but it's 05:00, I'll just do it tomorrow. But if we go, I want to own my success, I don't want anything to stand in my way, then your world starts to change because it's yours and drivership is getting into action. So, I think just from those few things there's jewels. But the one that I would say just to round this out is one of the best practices starts to kind of explore who you are in sales and how you want to build rapport and what sales is all about. And explores a story, a couple of stories where salespeople have head trash, where they feel really uncomfortable with the term selling. They feel like they need to convince somebody or force something, and the book really plays around with that and splits it on its head and says, look, just show up as who you are. Be authentic. Be the person that wants to connect and understand and guide people forward. And guess what? If you start to do that, you're actually going to be selling more effectively than you ever have, and it's not going to feel like selling. Those are the 10,000 foot fly by that I love about the book.

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Well, that's what's flawed about having a podcast like this. I so want to dive into each of those of lifetime value and being of service and these mindset things that you brought together. Brilliant. Thank you. I only get to ask you a question about one. When you talk about ownership mindset and drivership mindset, and I hear you say that to me, that's fairly intuitive, and I don't know that anyone hearing that would disagree, I don't know, maybe they would. But having that ownership mindset for something so intuitive, what is it that you think blocks people from just being that? What's the block?

Yeah. That’s the $10 million question, right? But I'll tell you a very brief story, and maybe that'll help me get the answer. I was in a company that provided professional services, and the ownership leadership team were all partners, and the partner had somebody he knew from his network that wanted to purchase these services. And these professional services would be something that would renew every year. So, there was a long value there. And he decides to give this account to one of his account executives that I was actually working with. And for months, he would be so frustrated. When he talked to me about the sales executive, why hasn't he called him? Why isn't he this? Why hasn't he flown out? Why isn't he that? Like, all the reasons. Why hasn't he kind of stepped up to this? And I started to talk to the salesperson, and I said, do you realize you own this account? And he goes, yeah. I go, what does that mean to you? And he's like, well, it's mine to grow. And I'm like, okay, if it's yours to grow, how would you grow it? He is like, well, I don't really know. And I don't know what the partner that gave me wants to do. I was like, well, why haven't you asked the partner? Well, because he gave it to me. Well, wait, what? You both want the same thing, but there’s something that was putting the brake on, and I said, can I tell you what the partner really wants you to do? He goes, God, please. It has been two months. I'm failing. I'm like, he wants you to know that this is yours to own and grow, and he wants to see that you take action, to show and demonstrate that this is yours and that you know how to grow something he gives it to you. For example, have you called him and said, give me a download on this? He goes, no, but he hasn't called me either. I was like, well, if you own it, it doesn't matter. You're not waiting. That becomes the passenger, right? If you are the driver, this, you're going to call the partner and say, awesome, thank you. Tell me everything I need to know. And then tell me three things that you would do if you were me.   And then, you know what? I'm going to go back, and I'm going to think through this. I'm going to bring it forward. I'm going to run it by you just to kind of keep you in the loop. But I have this. I'm going to make it mine, and I'm going to make you proud. I'm going to make this really happen. But I think there's sometimes this hesitation of I don't know what I'm supposed to do or am I crossing a line? Maybe he had a sales manager before that said, you can't this or you can't that. So, I think sometimes the reason it doesn't happen is we don't have enough awareness that it's a thing and we don’t really know what ownership means. Because he thought he owned the account, he just wasn't acting as it.

You're such a great storyteller. It made me think, like, the guy gave him a gift, and the gift was packaged up really nicely, and the guy got the package gift with a bow on it and nice packaging and then never really opened it, and he was thankful for the gift. This is awesome. Yeah. I wonder what's in here.

It was exactly that. And then what happened, unfortunately, is the salesperson would start to get reactive, and then he would make a mistake. Hey, I reached out to them, and I sent him an email, but it's been a week, and they haven't responded. And then the partner is like, well, why did you email them? Why didn't you call me and then do the things that you would do if this was wrapped up on a bow? Right? And some of that's just the difference between being a passenger and a driver, too. But, yeah, you're right. It's like he gave him a gift and he didn't know how to open it. And once, even if he were to open it, he didn't necessarily know what to do with it.


So good. Karl, I told you we'd look down at our watches and go, oh, man, that was fast. I'm just super grateful for you. Thank you. I don't know, I was taking notes and thinking about that's, how you know you're good, like, I stopped interviewing you and started thinking through some of your insights and go, hey, we got some work to do with regard to some of this stuff, but I want. To have you back and have you maybe talk a little bit more about your book and what lifetime value in being of service. I know there's a lot more there. We'll certainly have it in the show notes as to how to get a hold of Karl and access a lot of his resources and his books and that'll all be out there. And was there anything that, again, you hope before we end this, that you hoped I would ask you and I didn’t?

You know, I guess for me, I'm sitting here smiling, I had a blast. I feel like I was able to share that one thing about the iceberg. And if everyone listening is like, yeah, what if I started to think about things differently? Even my kids. When your kid sits down, how was your day? It was fine. Do you want to talk about school? It was okay. Well, that's 1% of the iceberg, right? So, what can we do to explore it more and just build better relationships with the people around us with this idea? So, I'm going to say this was great. I don't think there's anything else I'd add.

Well, you’re awesome, and I want to thank you for doing this and like we do here when we get to the end, I was taking notes like you do, and I've even got things like what do I take for granted? I love that part of your story where you were like, maybe something for you was so fundamental and you backed up and even asked the question, wait a minute, maybe that's not as fundamental, and that created this whole book. And so, you had me ask that question. I love the idea of you took away a lot of the complexity and you wrote a book and just this is for you. It's easy and if people just walk away, andd your four things about within the framework of your iceberg of mindset, I love each of those four. And so, I just got a ton of insight., so I'm grateful for that. So thank you.

Yeah, you're very welcome. Thank you.

Yeah, well, like we do every time here at the end of the inside interviews and we have this little know, you and I have to talk about this after the whole thing, but I will tell our listeners,, Karl's insights, ah, this is going to kind of sound harsh. They don't matter. And mine really don't matter.        

Really why we do this is because when Karl shares that when we ask these questions, we're hoping and I know he hopes that you have some. What dawns on you as a result of this? And that maybe is what matters most. And so, Karl, thank you for being the light for which we can have some dawnings. How about that?      

Love it. Thank you. Well said.

Brother, have a great one. Thank you for being part of it and we'll see everyone next time here on The Insight Interviews- Powered by REWIRE.        

 
            

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