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In this episode, Steve and Jason discuss:

  • A season for everything 
  • What does it take to have a good mindset
  • Brainstorming and framestorming
  • Looking at a problem from a different perspective

 

Key Takeaways:

  • There’s a time to be present and there’s a time to look back. Now is the time to reflect and to think about what you think this year is teaching you. 
  • Having a good mindset isn’t about pretending that everything’s fine, it’s about facing reality and talking about what’s really happening. 
  • Brainstorming is all about going around and contributing solutions to one another while “frame-storming” is about considering different perspectives about a topic. 
  • Don’t let yourself be restricted to your own perspective only. Try to see a problem from another person’s eyes.

 

 

“How would the best version of future you think about this particular challenge or that particular time?”
- Jason Abell

“Frame storming - It's different than brainstorming. Frame storming is actually not necessarily looking for different solutions, but looking through different lenses.”
- Steve Scanlon

 

Connect with Jason and Steve:

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Listen to the podcast here:

Jason and Steve- Looking Back

Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Insight interviews. These are your hosts, Steve and Jason again, dude, we're back together.

Well, hello, there.

That's Jason, usually we have to decide who's bringing us into the show. And I won.

You won, or I allowed you to do at this time one, however, you look at it the way you want to look at it.

I gotta go with a win, I won the thing. So welcome. It's a really special time of the year, we know that. And this is, I don't know, it's becoming traditions. Isn't that funny? We have traditions within traditional times of the year, but our tradition is that Jason and I will be coming to you all for the next couple of weeks. And this is, again, a very particular time of the year where we like to come and have a little reflection with you. We have some idea of where many of you kind of sit at this time of the year inside these, this holiday. And yeah, so we're just here to spend a little time with you hopefully get you thinking just a little maybe in the right spirit of how we could be thinking at this time of the year. What you think about that?

Well, Steve, you know, in December as we get ready to turn the calendar to another yet another year, it is a time where we're talking a lot with our clients about reflection and planning, and I think what you and I decided to do was, for this episode, we'll talk a little bit about looking forward in projecting but really focus for a few minutes on reflecting. And for some of you listening, this may have been a particularly good year for whatever reason, personally, professionally, or otherwise, but for others there, gosh, you may look back and not really like what you see a whole lot. But there's still a purpose and looking back either way and reflecting either way, and I think I think that's what we're going to focus on today.

Yeah. You know, as you were saying that this happens in our Insight Interviews, we always have insights. I don't know how many times when you've, you know, you've been interviewing somebody that, you know, they say something, and it gives you an insight.

All the time. All the time.

Yeah. I have often quipped inside some of my interviews, Jason, that I wonder if this isn't just for me, right? Oh, some guests will say something and I’m like, man, that got me thinking, you got me thinking about this reflective time, you know, and then we're going to quickly move to a planning time. And it just made me think about, you know, that idea that to everything, there is a season. And I think it's sometimes even important to remember that seasons are seasons, right? I that just feels important to me. Like there is a time for things and I sometimes laugh, Jason, and think you know, the birds in 1966 made a song out of that right? To everything turn, turn, turn, there is a season, which, for me is a complete plagiarism of Ecclesiastes three., but I digress. But anyway, there's a time there's a time to look back. And as a coach, and especially you and I that run this company, and we're both coaching ourselves, I'm curious how often you are coaching people from a mindset perspective in your own with your own clients, Jason. How often is some form of learning to be present? And be in the moment is that?

I'm glad you're asking the question because it's often very often we need to do that, and I know you and I've talked about this a lot, and I think I think in the coaching industry we hear this right like there are clients and heck I'm even guilty of this when I'm talking to my own coaches.

                                                                                                           
"I want to talk about the past and either how I did something right or how maybe I did something wrong or somebody else did something wrong, and I'm in the past and need to be reminded and I try to do my best as a coach to do this with my clients to go okay, there is that and we need to we can ignore it, we don't want to put our heads in the sand like a like an ostrich, but it's there. But at the same time, let's be here, because what we can best focus on what we have the most influence on and how we can best influence our future is by being just like you said, present right here, right now."

So that's a long-winded answer, Steve, for me to say, yeah, a lot.

It's not long winded. I'm just sitting here going, I think I spend a lot of energy, Jason, with myself and clients, and just how do we get present? How do we get present? And yet here, you and I are doing a reflection thing, which is intentionally looking backwards. And that's what brought me to seasons. There is a time to look back. We don't need to go into this now. Or we might. It's our podcast, whatever the heck we want.

Right, I guess we can do it.

It's been my experience that you while you mentioned a couple of people that are looking back. I think a lot of people in business spend a lot of time looking forward.

Yeah. But as you said, yeah, there is the season to look back, and I think that's, I think that's what we're doing right now.

Yeah, well, and again, do we step away from being present to go, no, let's reflect. And I think we do. And I think that's actually okay. I think that's actually okay.

Untitled design (2)-2

You know, I had an experience in a workshop that I led just two weeks ago, I just really was fond of this particular workshop for a couple reasons. One is, it was the week before Thanksgiving, so there just seems to be a vibe in a room right before Thanksgiving. And I don't know if you noticed that or I but there was just a camaraderie of a softness of the warmth in people's smiles and the way that they just showed up in the room. And so that was just- you could feel it in the room. So, I just, I really liked that. And, you know, as mindset coaches, Steve, how many exercises do we have on being present or mindset or projecting and, you know, thinking about what's in the windshield, and what will next week be like next month or next year? But we spent a few moments on an exercise doing just that reflecting on, hey, what's going on in the market right now? What's going on in the industry right now? And you could just see people's shoulders, kind of exhale. Like, because there was almost like this, well, we're not going to talk about some of this? I know it's negative, but are we not going to talk about it? And it was good to get that pressure release of hey, the market actually isn't it's another great at all, especially compared to last year and neither is the economy and by the way, have we talked about interest rates and inflation and all these types of things and it was good to just reflect on that and get it out there. Kind of like Mr. Rogers says, if you can mention it, you can manage it, or a coaching term is sometimes you can name it to tame it. We did a little naming and taming in the room that day and it just set the stage for us to then be able to move forward so nicely.

I love that and I can't tell you how many times, what I liked about that Jason, is just as mindset coaches, it is never our job to come and go it's all going to be great today. No, no, that you know reality right?

Right.

Let's start with reality it's not a great season economically. But like getting that out there I love that I when you said that I could just see people going out good, we don't have to number one pretend that it doesn't exist or number two pretend that something different exists like, no, let's talk about what's really happening.

What was particularly striking in when we were doing that exercise in the room there was a gentleman and man I so appreciated him doing this. He raised his hand in this room of mortgage bankers and real estate professionals and he said, I actually don't think it's a good time to buy right now. How can I in good conscious you know pre-approved people and tell them that it's a good time to buy when interest rates are so high and possibly even going up? And I just appreciated him saying that you know, even though me as a three on the Enneagram, it was a little negative for me, I tend to focus on the positive, you know, but I appreciated hearing him, and I said a few things. I told him that I you know respectfully disagreed with them and here's why, but I said at the same time I really appreciate you saying that because I think there are a lot of people that think that way and what it did was it produced a discussion in the room only for about five minutes for people to go hey there's actually a different lens. Yes, rates are up, yes, inflation, yes this, yes that, but here's how I look at it. And two or three people did that, and it was really good and the at the end of the conversation, he actually said, you know, I really appreciate listening to you all's point of view, because I'm understanding that it's okay to maybe think some of the things that I'm thinking but also know that there's other ways, you know, to look at it.

                                                                                                             
"So, my point of telling you, in our podcast listeners, all of that is just to say that sometimes reflecting on the past, even if it might be (I'm using air quotes now) negative or challenges or difficult times, there are just different ways to look at that. And the fruit of the different ways of looking at it, whether it's positive or negative, whatever judgment spin you put on, it can help you in the future and moving forward, which I think is great."

Yeah, dude that's, yeah, that's incredible. I didn't even know we were going to actually talk about this today, but you got to dance with the person that brought you, right?

Let's do it. Where are we going?

Oh, here's where we're going. And maybe this is, we should do some reflection, and it's a really cool time to do that. But what you just talked about was a concept that we've used in coaching quite a bit, then maybe we can, you know, in the show notes, give some people some reference to is a concept called frame storming. Frame storming, right?

Sure.

It's different than brainstorming, which is to look for different solutions. Hey, let's brainstorm that. What if we did this and that and then a frame storming is actually not necessarily looking for different solutions, but looking through different lenses.

Right on.

And so, I just wonder, on this date, you know, when this comes out, I wonder if you have, listeners, something in your world, that's, again, like Jason mentioned, there's some challenges out there right now. And that's okay. Let's name them. Let's tame them. As we tame them, one of the ways to do that is to actually not just see the challenge through the lenses that you've been telling yourself, this challenge exists. And so that guy that said, hey, you know, this is going on and whatever, and then other people go and thank you for that., and sounds like it was like a really cool thing. Here's how I see that. That's not a brainstorm. That's a frame storm.

That's right. That's exactly right. I know you do a whole workshop on frame storming. Give the give some of the tidbits here because I know it but I want to hear it myself again.

Yeah. Well, first of all, frame storming comes from a Dutch psychologist. Her name is Annette Preen. And as best I can research, she was the one that sort of coined this quite a few years ago, this idea of frame storming. And it is literally stopping and how you think and saying, Okay, I've got a problem. Interest rates are like this, and this is my problem, you see a problem. But then rather than trying to move to solutions, you can actually, before you do that, can you begin by maybe reframing the problem, or seeing the problem differently? That's exactly what happened in the workshop that you did. Other people were like, okay, that's cool, but here's a way that I'm looking at it. And here's a way that I'm looking at it. But we can do that, like, listener, you can do that right now. It's not easy. I will tell you that, Jason. Once you frame a problem, and you've said it to yourself, you've got this narrative, and you're like, no, here's the problem. Actually going well, wait a minute, what if I looked at the problem like this? And there are some questions that we can ask that actually augment frame storming. So, for example, how would the smartest person you know, think about that problem differently than you?

Yeah, that's a good one.

Okay, for those of you that have kids, even if you don't have kids, how would a 10 year old look at that problem? And what would they say?

One of the other questions, you've got me thinking, actually I talked about this with a client the other day, how would the best version of future you think about this particular challenge or that particular time? Because, you know, sometimes when we think of things, you know, when we have obstacles or challenges, and we're in the moment or even shortly after the moment, boy, it's, you know, it's so easy to get in that negative Nelly, you know, type of stinking thinking, you know, type of deal, whereas if you go, okay, the best version of future me, how would that person look at this? And I just think, you know, then it really is on you. And we all know that version of ourselves that we're aspiring to and it's always an aspiration, right? Like, there is no, I'm there and whatever. It's just it's you. And I've talked, I think a couple of different episodes of the podcast on just the journey itself and valuable it is. But yeah, I like these questions a lot.

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Well, there you started it, I didn't know we were gonna go down this road. Isn't that classic In our podcast? We don't know, when roads were going down that, you know, whatever. So, you know, look, the guy that brought that up, and the different people who just saw the problem differently. Now, you can do that, you know, you'd have to practice some pretty serious metacognition to get yourself to do that with yourself, which is totally cool to do. You can ask other people. I think one of the challenges with that, Jason, if I'm naming it and taming it, is once we frame a problem, we just like, we want to think that we're right, and that's the only way to frame it, and sometimes actually thinking about it from those different angles, can really spark, you know, some things. Again, we're not going to make the show about this, but I think you and I use each other for that in our own business.

We do. Yeah, we do. We do. And it's bad.

I'll bring something to you. And you'll be like, okay, well, I see that differently. And I got to be honest with you, when you first say that to me, I think that’s because you're an idiot and you don't understand.

Well, I mean, there's probably like a 10% chance that actually is true. I am an idiot. And I don't know what I'm talking about.

But vice versa, you at least, I think you're thinking about that for me, I'm 20% that there's a good chance that I'm here, right? But if I would pause and let myself see it through your eyes, it can actually be Oh, whoa, whoa.

Yeah. And I've definitely had the same experience with you. And I think listeners, you've probably all had your version of that experience, right? I mean, if you're the type of person that's listening to a podcast like this, you're probably the type of person who has had that kind of experience, right?

But on this particular day, in this particular season, not only of the year, but of the season of life that you're in, and the economics and or political or whatever season that we're in, it might be a really interesting way to actually navigate, and even become a little bit more resilient in a difficult season because of a willingness to not just see a particular issue or challenge through the lenses through which you intuitively see it, but rather, frame storm that a little bit and ask, how would someone else see that?

One of the things that I – I don’t know I would describe myself as proud very often, I mean, when it comes to things around my kids, I suppose I would describe myself that way, but one of the things that rewire that I'm just really proud of ourselves that we do is we have a reflection tool that we do every year and we hone it a little bit every year. And it's out, or at least by the time that this podcast episode drops, it'll be out, and this reframing or looking at things through a different lens, this reflection tool, you know, when I go through it every year, it's a prompting, right? It asks certain questions that allow us to reflect on things maybe from a different light in the specific way that the questions are asked. And that tool, we're going to put in the show notes, and we send it to our clients proactively every year. But if you're listening to this, and you're not one of our clients, we'll give it to you for free. Like, it'll be in the show notes. And it's a pretty robust tool. And I'd love to hear what you have to say about it Steve, too, but it's a robust tool. But I know when I set, you know, the week between Christmas and New Year's is when I usually go through it personally, those couple of hours or whatever it is that I end up spending on it, man, I have insights. Man, I am able to reframe certain things, and it just gives me this level of anticipation for next year. It's just fun. I finish that, and I'm like golly, I'm just so glad I did that. So, I don't know, the reflection tool is something that has helped me over the years and if listeners any of what we Steve and I've said over the last I don't know, whatever it's been 15-20 minutes is interesting, too. I don't know maybe take a gander at the reflection tool.

Ser you're being nice. I would have shoved it down their throat a lot further than that, like, come on. Let's reflect. Do it. You play good cop. No, I think you hit it right on the head. I'm proud of the fact that we continue to live out one of our core values, which is to practice the very things that we speak about. And so, I'm proud of the fact that we don't just do tools and throw them out there, we do tools like gosh, Jason, you and I came up with these questions, and yet, I still have the ability to sit with the question and not think of it as just oh, that's a question that we came up with, but rather than oh, what does that question actually mean to me? Where do I have to look back and maybe think about something differently? What am I proud of this year that I actually did or thought? And it's always just almost like the way you just described it, you go through it, and it's so fascinating. I think maybe some people think like, oh, they came up with it, like, no, we're actually doing that.

Yep, yep.

No, that we actually do that. And we sit back, and we take these questions, not just seriously, you know, we put them in our own hearts, and they can create insights in us too. And so, I think it's a really, really cool thing to do. And it's a really cool season of the year to do that in. And, yeah, I think some of the insights that we can have, some of the frame storms that we can have, then allow us to be back in the present. And then not too long from now, how do we use that work to go okay, how do I step forward?

Well, that's a that's a great tease for next week's episode, Steve. Like, that's exactly, that's exactly what we're doing, right? We're reflecting this week, and then we're gonna project and plan and talk about some things for next year, next week. So way to drop a little teaser there, man.

Well, cool, I've got some frame storming to go do and I am really appreciative for you that you had brought up the actual tool. I'm going to just claim something here. I actually do that every year, I have not yet put it in my calendar, that I do want to find that date. And so, my commitment to you is before the end of the week, it'll actually be a time in my calendar where, because every time I put it in my calendar, I actually think to go somewhere. I can't seem to do that tool in my kitchen.

Sure, sure.

That's just, I don't know, I gotta change my environment a little bit. And so maybe I get excited about, you know, going to some different coffee shop or something like that. But that's just a little tool for me.

Yeah, that is part of it. Sure. Sure. Well, you know, I've had an insight, Steve, I think this is the part of the programming where we talk about our own insights. So, I'm going to go first. I just had an insight about our business as you and I were talking, you know at Rewire. And maybe this is getting maybe a little bit more transparent than then you showed on a podcast, I don't know. But you know, you and I've been in growth mode now for the better part of 10 years at Rewire. And every year, we've been fortunate enough to grow, which has just been fun. I mean, that's just, I don't know, I like growth, you know, and our clients do too, and that's been really fun. And with the economy and what happened in the markets that we serve, and all of that, this year, you know, I don't know. The final numbers aren't out yet, but we may have grown a pinch. In fact, I think we did just a pinch of flat to growth. It's not the growth that we've experienced. And I, as I reflect on the year, I'm like, ah, darn it, why didn't we grow like we normally do or as much as we normally do? And I'm like, okay, wait a minute. As I've surveyed others in the industry that we're in, training and development and coaching and all of that, it seems like the industry is way, way down. And so, for us to be where we are with maybe just a pinch of growth or flat to a little bit of growth, I would say reframing that, heck, man. That's pretty good. And so, I don't know, that's my insight. Rather than be bummed about the just a pinch of growth, I can reframe that, as I reflect on it and go, are you kidding me? How lucky are we? Like, that's amazing.

All right. Well, we need to end the show. We promised a short one. I think that's a great insight, dude. My quick insight, and then you can take us out. My quick insight is as you were talking, because that's how insights happen, right, a dawning, I'm like, I'm making connections. I'm like, woah. I love that your insight was around, you know, the growth and we have grown, and it's just been great. One of my reframes is what if I saw growth differently?

Okay.

I look at 2022 and some of the things that we've had to walk through with clients and decisions we had to make in the business and things, and I think that's growth. That's incredible growth. And so, reframing how I think about what growth means. Look, yeah, you're right numbers, all that stuff. It matters and it's important. I'm also reframing how maybe I'm just getting older, but growth is taking on a new meaning for me. So, in terms of what I'm learning, am I becoming more patient? My growing the left side of my brain a little bit? I think I'm just kind of reframing how I think about growth. So that's been my own insight.

Yeah, two insights there. But yeah, Steve, thanks for that. Now you got me thinking, I don't want to be like, you know, like, when you and I play ping pong and go back and forth over the net with one another here, but we’ll end if on that note. First of all, listener, thank you so much for listening to the episode. We don't take any of that for granted. And we so much appreciate that. But as you listen to our insights, they're just that they're ours. But the question is, and what's most important is from the last 20 minutes or so, what insights did you get? Steve, thanks, man. We'll talk next week, brother.

Yes, sir. Have a great day. Thank you, everybody.

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