Are you prepared to lead through chaos and navigate the challenges of a volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous (VUCA) world? Let’s explore how intentional community, authentic connection, and decisive action can help counter isolation and drive meaningful progress. Discover why coming together, even in the messiest or most uncomfortable moments, is key to thriving amidst uncertainty. Let’s uncover practical strategies to foster collaboration, build resilience, and lead with purpose in turbulent times!
“Whatever your definition of coming together and being in community—whether it’s a regular cadence of communication, a big meeting, gathering people, or even just a simple five-minute phone call—you will tend to do better with that scenario than isolating yourself. Even if it’s embarrassing, messy, or hard to admit, you will always be better in community than in isolation.”
- Jason Abell
Hello and welcome everybody to this episode of LinkedIn Live and this episode of The Insight Interviews. I am one of your hosts, Jason Abell, and the co-host here, Steve Scanlon. Steve, say hello to the Live World and the Insight Interview world.
It's always like hello world. Steve Scanlon here. Like Broadway, right? We pulled the curtains up. We're live.
We are live. I think it was either the last LinkedIn Live or maybe two times ago where I had some major tech issues, and at the last minute, I literally wasn't able to join, and you just went on by yourself. And so, we're already winning, because we're both here at the same time, in the middle of what we're about to talk about today, chaos and uncertainty in the world. We're here and we have clothes on, and that's a good thing, right?
I had already blocked that out. That was a little chaotic. How ironic?
Well, it's a good segue into what we're talking about today. If you're here and if you're listening, or even if you're in your car, by the time this hits the podcast airwaves, and you saw something in the title about chaos, or maybe you recognize the acronym VUCA, which we're going to get into in a minute, and how it relates to you, and that's what we're going to talk about today. There is chaos in the world, and there may even be chaos in your organization or in your life somehow. And in fact, I'd probably say there probably is, because if you're alive and you're breathing and have a heartbeat, there's some semblance of chaos, and we need to talk about that, figure it out, and really how it relates to you being a better leader. So, that's our topic today. And Steve, this is something that you and I came together on, and you put some language to it with the VUCA acronym, and I'd love for you to just talk about that a little bit, maybe even define VUCA, and then we'll start from there.
Yeah, well, a lot of what you and I bring to the table, Jason, this comes out of our coaching. We are live with people, you and I, and all our coaches across the country, and so, we get this really cool petri dish. You and I don't come together and go, what would you like to say? Like, no, we actually search for things that are going on with us in coaching. And clearly, we are always going to protect our people, and we're not going to say who and how and when and why or whatever, but this topic stemmed from an idea that I had a client who was really deeply into some mindset coaching and wanting to understand a little more about the concept of flow. In the athletic world, athletes call it the concept of being in the zone.
Yep.
And believe it or not, there's some incredible science around being in the zone or in the neuroscience space, sometimes it's called being in flow. So, as I studied flow more and more, because I was doing that as just kind of a research project of my own to help this client, I kind of went to one of my stalwarts, which was Dr. Daniel Siegel, who was the head of neurobiology at UCLA, and just this incredible human being. I think one of the greatest teachers out there. He writes a great deal about this, and basically, and obviously we don't have time today to go into that, but flow, and he uses this river as a metaphor. Flow is when you're in the middle of the river, and at the sides of the river are chaos and rigidity, and so that was really important to understand. Like, no, I know we wanted to talk about flow, but it might be important to understand, what are the things that get us out of flow? Well, when we're in chaos or we're restricted, and to me, that was just really helpful, because sometimes I feel restricted and other times, I feel chaotic, but as I started to kind of look at those things, this concept of VUCA came out. And again, we didn't make this up, and as far as we can tell, and I talked to some other team members about this, VUCA is an acronym, and it stands for these four ways that the world seems to be going. And it's not super positive. But I was on the bank of chaos, and the C in VUCA is chaotic, right? Chaos. But it stands for volatile, uncertain, chaotic and ambiguous.
Yeah.
So, there were some people that say, you know, we're living in a VUCA world. Now, what's really funny is, it's 2024, at the end of 2024 and VUCA was an acronym, as best we can tell, that was initiated somewhere around the fall of the Berlin Wall in 89, you know? And again, you read varying reports of where it came out, but it was the US military that was trying to define what was going on in Europe, and some guy came up with VUCA, and then it wasn't really until 2002 until someone picked up on that and said, man, this VUCA thing is going on, and they sort of democratized it. And VUCA, volatile, uncertain, chaos or complexity, it was chaos and complexity. Sorry, it is complexity and ambiguity, and this concept became sort of democratized, and so I started to study VUCA. The reason we're doing this, and as what I told you, is, it took me about, I don't know, I was probably reading all these articles on it, the Berlin Wall, what they meant by it, what businesses meant by it, and I was deep in VUCA, and I noticed that myself, as a coach, after, I don't know, 20 minutes of that, I just felt horrible.
Yeah, yeah.
And I was like, isn't that almost ironic? Studying volatility and uncertainty, complexity, chaos, chaos or ambiguity and here's how I felt. And I was like, golly, just studying about the topic made me feel this way, and that's not even being in a VUCA world. And so, as I was trying to help this client find flow, I went back with the concept of VUCA as a way to define what the bank of chaos meant, or, you know, whatever, and it was really, really helpful. And then both of us together started to create ways, because that's what we do in coaching, is we were co creating some ways to move away from VUCA. Maybe that study, maybe you can help me. The world is VUCA?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, we're not going to stop that, right? Like our show today isn't like, here's how to stop the VUCA world. Like we're in a VUCA world, folks.
If anything, not only are we sure that it's going to continue to be that way, but it may also even get worse, whatever the definition of worse is. I mean, you and I looked at each other a few weeks ago, and we're like, okay, election, yeah, it's an election here, and right now, it just seems crazy and weird, but, but the next election cycle probably will be even more weird or crazier. But, yes, we're in the middle of an election cycle right now. There are a few wars going on in the world right now. Weather seems to be really weird. My daughter lives down in Tampa, Florida, and there have been two hurricanes, you know, in the span of just a couple of months. Weather, economic, your business that you're involved in. We looked at that and we said, yeah, we do live in a VUCA world, and this may be extremely appropriate right here, right now, as we're just in the middle of the chaos and the uncertainty and the complexity and the volatility.
Isn't it funny that even right here in our show, I'm feeling this tendency to, like, stop talking about it. Let's like, move on to solutions. Because if we stayed in it, you will feel the effects of it, and one of the things that you and I subscribe to as do our coaches and our work is that we're not trying to change the world as it is, we're trying to understand it in a way where we can actually do some things to navigate in it more effectively, so that we can achieve our goals and do some stuff. And that's what we're about. One, as a point of comedy, as I was studying VUCA, there's actually a new acronym, because it's just like human beings, VUCA got worse, and so they actually made a worse acronym. I just have to say it, because it's kind of funny, and then we'll move on, but as the world continued to get more complex, chaotic, there was a new acronym that was created called BANI which stands for brittle, anxious, nonlinear and incomprehensible.
Yeah, all kinds of acronyms out there for it. How worse it may seem.
I was thinking, wow, in 10 years, what new adjectives are we gonna find in an acronym? Oh my gosh. But what we want to focus on, and it's what we do in coaching, obviously, is how do we operate in that? How do we operate effectively in that? And so, you and I do what we do, and part of this comes from the work that we do, and we just want to share with y'all, hey, we've got some suggestions for you, and we've got some ideas and thoughts and coaching around
it.
I had a coaching session this morning with a client, literally, this morning. I heard him talking in a way that I typically don't hear him talking, and it was, I don't know, as best as I can describe it, it was just this feeling of sometimes helplessness when it’s so chaotic. And that word, you know, overwhelmed this, you know, I heard him that way, and I thought about, hey, we're doing this LinkedIn Live later on, let me try out some of the solutions. And we've done this multiple times, but it's literally this morning, and it was just so helpful. So, I'd love to get into the solutions that we've come up with, and as we do this, I may bring back this coaching example, literally from this morning, and the positive effect, that it had on this client. So, yeah, we've got three keys that we want to make people aware of now that we've recognized, hey, it is chaotic, it is crazy, and that there are days that are worse than others. I get it. But, when you're feeling most overwhelmed, most chaotic, and you still have a responsibility as a leader to do your thing, we've got three solutions for you.
Yeah, this might make you shiver just a little bit, Jason, but what if I told you I have four because I made one up just now?
Well, let's get through the first three, and we'll see.
No, well, the first one is actually one before the three. And I'm teasing, but here we go. I just want to let you know, like as a coach, when you mentioned that, that you did it with a client, the first thing I would say is you and I said, we have three things, and even when we were doing them, we recognized they weren't the only three.
Oh, I think we called down from what, 10 or 12?
Yeah. But what's really important, before we get going on our three, is, even as you're listening to this, what do you do? Like, I just want to draw to the attention, because that's part of what we do in coaching, isn't just to come and give advice. Here's our three. I know that's good marketing. The three steps to getting through a VUCA world. It's good marketing, and our three are really good, but as a coach, I just want to go, man, I wondered if you just paused for a second and just thought, what are my three? What do I do in a VUCA world that's effective for me? So, that was one, but it's not really one.
In other words, for somebody to say, okay, what is my go-to? What do I typically do? And that's really things, as we've seen, Steve, that some people actually have pretty healthy things and pretty good ways to cope and thrive, and some people don't. I would say the bell curve of the people, at least, my observation so far, is probably not really good ways of coping with these things.
Yeah, 100%. Well, okay, let's dive in. You ready?
Yeah, tell me this number one.
Yeah, number one. Again, I hope we don't double up here. Here it is. Acknowledge where you are, right? One of the things that's interesting about being in a VUCA world is like you said, Jason, we can get so in it, so inundated, so whatever, that we no longer see that this is what it is.
Yes, yes.
And we can't separate like, who we are and how we're feeling. And so, one of the things that you and I do is actually saying, oh, this is the VUCA world, and having some recognition, like, oh, this is what's going on. You wouldn't believe it, but that's an amazing step. As we know, if you can name it, you can tame it.
Sure. I mean, I can't think of a workshop that we've done, even one of these LinkedIn Lives that we've done where I don't know the percentage that we bring up that saying of naming it to tame it. I mean, how many workshops have we done where one of the very first things we do is whatever the elephant in the room is, whether it's we're in a we're in a banking conference, and we talk about how crazy interest rates are, or the regulatory situation, or we're with our one of our manufacturing organizations, and we're talking about how crazy import exports are right now, or tariffs, we're going to call out whatever the thing is, and I think that's exactly what you're referring to now, is acknowledge it.
Yeah. And so just by listening to this, being with us live, or hearing it later on, you're already participating in our first step, because you have a willingness to go, what is that? How is it? Where is it in my life? Recognizing it. And by the way, if you can name it, you can tame it. I have come to have like a coupling saying with that, like I do these two sayings together a time I say that. I always think of Carl Jung saying, which is what we resist persists.
Yeah, if you don't name it, it won't get tamed.
And when you name it and realize, oh, VUCA, volatile, uncertain, complex, you know, chaotic complexity, ambiguous, I'm not sure what's going on, well, I'm naming it. It's not a great name, is it? You and I don't even want to stay there very long. So, there is this tendency to go get away from that. Don't even think about VUCA, you know, whatever. But here's the deal, what we resist persists. So, you and I do a thing on it. We don't go get away from it. We go actually see it.
Yeah, big time.
Acknowledge it, recognize that it is a thing, because that's a big deal. Don't resist. Accept and acknowledge, but then, yes, now, once we do that, how do we create strategy, solutions, opportunities around it? I always tell people, you might get your butt kicked by something you didn't recognize.
Well, this goes back to old Fred Rogers, and Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, right? He had something very similar to the, if you can name it, you can tame it, which is, if you can mention it, you can manage it. And when I think about his easy-going voice and how he would tackle some tough things in the world of kids, but tackle it head on, and then manage it and then do something about it. And so, it's the same idea today as adults in the complex world of business that we're in. If we can just acknowledge what the heck is going on and go, yep, that's there, and I'm gonna lead really well with excellence. So that brings us to step number two, Steve. What do you got for us there?
Well, like you said, what a great setup, step number two is actually step, okay? When you're in a VUCA world, and you and I came up with this one, but it was interesting that one of our colleagues here, Stephanie, was like, you know what's really helpful for me? And she gave me hers, which is, just take the next step. Just do the next thing. That might seem sort of basic, but when I see what happened, and I think you're gonna tell a story about your guy or whatever, I have clients that next thing you know, they've got this to do list, everything looks urgent and they got three lists, and it's all over the place, and then it's so stifling, because you're in this VUCA world and you can't see, and so there's some merit in going, hey, pick number 17 on your list, right? And just go do something.
That's right. Take a step.
Go do that. Go do that. Take a step, even on the littlest thing. And then some people get all hung up on which one. But which one? And navigating, that's part of VUCA. And I know there is a time to prioritize, and we'll get back to that, but for right now, like I said, if you have 30 things on your list, I think sometimes you're better off again picking number 21 and doing something about it, rather than spending three days trying to figure out what the first five are.
Amen. Yeah, I've got an analogy, a story, and maybe a couple of stories around this idea. So, the analogy is in rock climbing and mountain climbing, they have something called the three-foot rule. And what that means is that if you're standing at the base of Mount Everest looking up, going, how in the world is this even going to happen, or if you are climbing, if you're rock climbing, and you look up and go, I don't even know. I can't do that. But what you do know is the next three feet in front of you. What is it that I need to do right now? Where does my hand need to be held so that I can pull myself up and then find a foothold? Then the next three feet. Just the three-foot rule. And guess what? If you start to string together a few three feet rules and do that, next thing you know, you're at the top, and that's how that works. So, that's just the analogy that I would give is just taking that next step. And as far as the next step or the next thing, one of my favorite authors is a woman named Emily P Freeman, and she has a whole career based on just this step. She wrote a book, and she has a podcast called “The Next Right Thing” and anytime that I'm in the middle of chaos, and Steve, you know my life well enough to know right now I'm in the middle of VUCA. But you know, personally, professionally, there's just a lot happening right now, because there's seasons, and that's how it is. And man, this idea of just the next right thing, because at any given moment right now, I have, you know, 18 things on my plate that need to be done right this minute, but I'm one guy that can only do one thing at a time. So, this idea of just the next right thing, let's take care of that, and then, just like the three foot rule, the next right thing reveals itself, and then the next right thing, and before you know it, you are actually making progress and things are actually happening there. So, I love this step of yours. And I just think between the analogy of, you know, climbing and the three-foot rule, or go listen to Emily P Freeman's podcast, and she talks topic after topic after topic, but on this focus niche of just the next right thing, because any of us, that's all we can do, is just the next right thing. Not the next 18 things, just the next right thing.
Yeah, I love it. And you are in the VUCA world. In fact, I haven't even called you in a couple days because I'm like, I got some questions for you with regard to what we're doing. I'm like, nah, it would be number 19 and 20, you know?
I appreciate that.
Leave him alone, he’s in VUCA. All right. By the way, like, I really do think that one is difficult for people, especially if you’re a perfectionist. Pay really close attention to this one if you consider yourself a bit of a perfectionist, because it's very difficult for perfectionist to take any step when they think the right one is the better one, but just the right one in a VUCA world, unfortunately, there isn't a right one. The VUCA world offers you 57 right ones, and that's what defines us in the VUCA world. And so, if you're a perfectionist, give yourself permission to take a step that might be not the perfect one.
But it is a step.
That's right. You actually participate in the volatility and then the uncertainty when you go all this time looking for the perfect next step. And there will be a time for that. You and I, you know, might do a season on being in flow, and when you're in flow, gosh, things are great, and we can look at steps and great, but we got to get out of we got to get through VUCA from time to time, not out of it, because maybe we can't get out of it. We can get through it and navigate it.
Yeah, so, so well said. So, we've, we've acknowledged, we've taken a step. What's number three?
Well, that's a little bit different. And again, you might even come back and say, how many times are we going to say this one? Here's what this one is. VUCA, and this is by, by the way, scientifically shown, VUCA has a tendency to isolate us.
Yeah.
When you get into a VUCA world, there's a lot of people that have a tendency to go inward, because I'm telling you, when I was sitting there studying VUCA, I noticed I don't want to just go be with people. I want to go sit in a corner and lick my wounds. I don't know what was happening. I was like, VUCA itself has a tendency to make us feel isolated, and so we can actually navigate through VUCA better, even if it's effortful for you to go and align with people, to go be with people, to get back to some fundamental meetings, to go to someone's place. I don't know. VUCA is an isolating thing, too, and so one of the ways through it is, how can we re- rally people around a thing and bring people back together? And we've been saying this, you know, since the post pandemic stuff, that to this day, there are still a lot of people who either appreciate not going into the office or whatever, but the problem is they're isolating, and a lot of those people are feeling more VUCA when it comes around, because they're effectively by themselves, and it's not a great way to go through VUCA.
Well, you bring up the pandemic as you were talking there, and it made me think about early 2020, when the pandemic first hit, and everybody scattered in aloneness, right? We sheltered and everybody was separated. And I remember, man, you talk about chaotic, our business, we do all these live events all over the country, and in March of 2020, we had the rest of the year pretty much all decked out and lined out, and things were scheduled, and contracts were done and invoices were paid, and all that really good stuff, and then it went to zero. Not like it went down, it went to zero, because there were no more live events that year. And we were like, whoa, okay. What's going to happen, along with the rest of the world, worrying about their wellbeing and their safety and their health? And I remember what we did is we came together as a team, and we huddled together, and we said, okay, we have one another, and what are we going to do? What are we going to do? We came back to some of our basics, we got our values in front of us, we got our purpose in front of us, and in community, we were able to come up with some things, and we ended up thriving as a result of it and we had a really good year for business in 2020 in spite of all of it. But I think a lot of that is because we ended up coming together as a team, as opposed to otherwise, which was isolating, and I'm just so glad we did.
And you and I both know teams are messy. People are messy. Relationships are messy.
Well, it wasn't perfect when we did that.
No, you know I've been saying this for a long time. And you know, the definition of a dysfunctional family is any family with more than one, okay? And so, we get that. You know, VUCA can be had, even inside things, but VUCA as a concept in the external world carries with it this capacity, if not proclivity, towards isolation.
Yeah.
And what I liked about what you said about our story there is, I didn't come up with that. Like, I think it needed all of us.
Oh, big time.
It needed, like, wait, what do you think? What do you think? I don't know. And I think you and I see that a lot. It takes all of us, however we're bringing it up as a step, because unless we're intentional about it, I sort of noticed that, especially in a VUCA world, it just doesn't organize itself like that. We don't just intuitively come together. It takes a concerted effort to go, no, we're going to do this. How many times have you been working with somebody and they were like, well, we used to have this meeting, and then maybe it's the nature of meetings or whatever, and now we don't do that anymore. So I'm just saying, if you're living in a VUCA world, again, it's not that I'm asking for more meetings, but we are saying one good step is to ask yourself how togetherness and bringing people together is a counterbalance and a really wonderful action to take in VUCA.
Yeah, and we've got about a minute left here, but if you're listening to that last step and you say, what does that mean to me, I just want to give you permission to, however you hear that, whether it means a regular cadence of communication with your team or your assistant or your stakeholder, whether it's a big meeting, whether it's getting people together, whether it's just a simple five minute phone call, whatever that means to you, it's okay. Just whatever your definition of coming together and being in community, you will tend to do better with that scenario than you will isolating yourself.
100%
Even if it's embarrassing or messy or you don't want to admit certain things or whatever, you will be better in community than you will isolated.
There you go. Those are our three steps. Take us home.
I'm gonna bring this up, which is a QR code. If you're watching this on LinkedIn Live, you can go here. You can get in touch with us. Steve, this is what we do. What you and I just spent the last 30 minutes doing, from a coaching standpoint, this is how we help leaders. We do it one on one. We do it in groups. We do it live. And so, if any of this sounds interesting to you and you want to explore it more, you can go to this QR code if you're listening to us in podcast form, Rewireinc.com, we would love to help you out. But Steve, that's a wrap for this month of LinkedIn Live and this edition of The Insight Interviews. Thanks for a great discussion, brother.
Great to be with you. Let's go navigate VUCA.