Steve and Jason delve into the extraordinary success of an individual who is thriving in a struggling industry. They discuss how her unwavering commitment to her personal non-negotiable practices has allowed her to achieve remarkable results, both professionally and at home. Despite facing the same economic and market challenges as the rest of her industry, she has defied the odds and is coming out ahead in sales, in retention and recruiting, and in company culture, all while maintaining a healthy balance with her personal life.
“Don't ever do it unless you're prepared to change the world."
-Steve Scanlon
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Hello and welcome to this week's episode of our podcast, The Insight Interviews- Powered by REWIRE. This is your host, Steve Scanlon. I wanted to start just slightly differently. It sounded awkward to me, so, like, whatever. Welcome to this week. Super excited for this week's episode is Jason and I. Oh, by the way, there's Jason. Jason, say hey.
Hey, what's up?
That's us on our podcast. What do you think of that?
Dude. Good to be together again.
These episodes, I don't know, it's kind of funny to think about episodes. I go back to, like, days when we used to watch Happy Days in episodes, and now we're going to do our own version of that at The Insight Interviews this week. So, we've got a special, I think, special episode this week with Jason and I. I think it's special because Jason, you and I have come together recently and know we get so much wealth and information from our own coaching and the fact that we've got these coaches all over the country and we're doing all this great work, and for years we just didn't want to touch it because of the confidentiality nature of it. And I think you and I have kind of figured out how to do that. How can we share the wealth of what's going on, like, actually going on with people's lives and still figure out a way to not have these people know that we're talking about them and protect the innocent? And so I think it just opens up a floodgate for us. And you shared one with me that we get to do today that I think is fantastic.
Yeah, no, this is good, and I've already gotten feedback from some of our listeners saying, hey, can you guys do more of those episodes? Like, when I hear you talk about existing coaching clients and what's happening, it seems like you're talking directly to me, like I'm hearing about myself. And so, look, we listen to people and you and I have written out, I don't know, seven or eight different topics where we're like, yeah, these things keep on coming up. We can tell specific stories that it's not, like, ethereal, it's not hypothetical, it's like, no, this is what's happening right now with people so that maybe you as the listener can say, that's happening to me, too. I wonder what I could do about that or what happened with this other person?
And it takes a lot less prep, right? Because basically the prep work is actually really being clever and creative to make sure that we're protecting people, but the truth is, what you're going to tell us today, that went down. You don't really have to do anything, but you're not making stuff up. We don't have to write a script like, no, this went down, and so I don't want to spend any more time with that. I'm really excited about it. We get to do this. You and I both know that when you do this work, a lot of really great stuff comes out, and we get to learn a great deal. And so I think we've, in a little funny way, cracked a code and figured out how to get this out to the world.
Yeah, right on.
So, bring us in, dude. You had told me about this, and it's just exciting for me, so tell me about what went down.
Well, what I'll do is I think I'll tell you a story of a coaching client. And again, we're changing names, we're changing specifics, but make no mistake, these are real stories. So, I've got a client, we'll call her Michelle, and one of the unique things about Michelle is she's a leader in a regional organization, and her industry that she is in right now is having a hard time with, oh, my gosh, there's just transitions. The state of affairs with the economy these days is affecting this industry in a negative way. Retention and morale is a real big challenge at her organization and at the industry at large, and one of the things that's unique about Michelle is that even though all of these things are happening, there are some things that are I just want to call them non negotiables, that are very high on her list. And when you look at some of those non negotiables, and then you look at her performance within her organization and within the industry at large, man, it puts her literally, not just figuratively and not just me calling out hypotheticals, literally in the top 1% of her industry. And so, I look at that, and I'm like, is there a direct link between her non negotiables and her results that she's getting? And by the way, the results are not just the professional results, there's all kinds of family and relational, and she's a wife, she's a mother, and the results that she's getting in those areas and then relationships in her personal life, they're just there, and they're just really good. And you're like, okay, wait a minute. You're doing that well in an industry, in an economic time in our history where nobody is really doing that well, what the heck is going on? And so, I just want to talk about some of those non negotiables. And as most things go with the work that we do, Steve, I'm just going to put a warning out there. I don't know that any of this is real sexy. I don't know that it's shiny. I don't know that it's new, but it's in my face with this particular client that I'm like, okay, we can't not talk about it, because as I raise my head up and I look at the landscape of other clients, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's true over there too. And, oh, it's true with him, too. And, oh, it's true with oh, look at that. There's a connection there. And so the non-negotiables are around self care things, and it's real specific with this particular client where she's an early riser. She gets up early in the morning, and our coaching sessions are at 06:00 a.m., her time. So, this is a client that calls in for a coaching session at 06:00 a.m., her time, and she's already been up for an hour. And I'm not saying I don't want you to listen to this and go, oh, this is another one of those. I got to wake up at O Dark 30 in order for me to be a successful leader. That's not what I'm saying at all, but what I am saying is she's super intentional about her day. And when I'm engaging her at 06:00 a.m., her time, she's on. It's not like she's groggy or anything like that. And so, there are things and I'm like, well, how much sleep did you get last night? And she has a whole routine, even though she's got young children, where she gets to bed at an early hour, and she gets up at an early hour, and she's doing things in the morning, like working out. She's doing things in the morning like drinking a bunch of water. She's doing things in the morning like gratitude journals, just things like that. Now, it's not every single morning, and she doesn't get it perfect, and she doesn't even strive for perfection, but she is doing things like that.
"And then from time to time, I'll dig in, and I'll go, let's talk more about your habits, your lifestyle habits, what you're doing as far as to get your mind right, to get your body right."
And it's a lot of things. I mean, it's things like I'm describing about morning routines, it's things that I'm describing around intentionality with the manner in which she mothers her children and the one-on-one time that she's spending with her children, it's things like, hey, by the way, I need to reschedule our next coaching session because I'm going to be away for a week at a silent meditation. And I'm like a silent retreat? And I'm like, golly, who does these types of things, right?
Who are you?
Everybody else in her industry is like, no, I got to work. I got to work harder, and I got to try more, and I got to figure out the new AI technologies, and I got to do these reports and make these phone calls. And she's like, yeah, I need to get away because I need to sharpen my mind a little bit more. And so, I guess what I want to say is -and we'll dig into I can't wait for you and I to have some Q & A time on this episode- but we'll get into the specificity around what you're seeing and what I'm seeing with Michelle here. But again, let me just tell you, things like sales, not a problem for Michelle right now. Things like employee retention, not a problem. Things like recruiting, which falls under her purview, she has people calling her saying I hear really good things about your organization, and I'd like to chat with you about that, about potentially coming over where most other people in her industry, it's like a struggle to go out and do outbound recruiting. She's, like, employing the law of attraction, where people are calling her- good people- wanting to come work for her. And so, I look at that, and I'm like, okay, this person is not only getting results, but going way against the tide and getting results that are just different than most of the industry. And there's these particular non negotiables that, again, they're not sexy. They're not shiny new toys. They're not the latest and greatest technology gadgets. And I listen to her, and she's like, I don't I don't understand why everybody's not doing this. Like, Jason, I don't get why wouldn't everybody be doing these things around self-care and health and wellness and taking care of your brain and taking care of your brain? Like, she doesn't understand why people don't do it because it doesn't take a lot of time. You and I may get into the specifics around that. But anyways, that's her story.
I dig it, dude. I didn't plan on doing this, but I think in a way, to draw out Michelle's story and to draw out your story, this is going to be weird, so forgive me for this.
Do it. I don't even know what you're about to say, but let's do it.
I want to play devil's advocate just to hear what you coach. Like, I'm listening to that, and I'm not but I'm play that's why it's play I'm going to play devil's advocate. I'm listening to that, and I'm in this person's industry, or I'm in another industry that's really struggling, and I'm hearing this, and I'm thinking, hogwash.
Nice. Yeah, let's go there. Hogwash. Sounds real cute dude. And I might be thinking, I don't think you get my situation. Like, I literally got to get up and work, and there ain't- I don't got time for no silent retreats and sitting around and trying to be a better person, and I got to get that stuff done.
And I'm, like, going, come on, man. I mean, the not so nice way to put it would be like, dude, get real. Come on, man. Why don't you showcase someone that's got to get up, who's in a tough industry that's just like, you got to just dig in and work really hard and go, that sounds more like my pace, my speed, and something that I need to hear and know I got to go because if I don't, I'm going to lose? I'm already on the precipice of losing, and here I am listening to a podcast, hearing some kook. Tell me about someone who's taking a silent retreat. Are you outside your mind?
Well, first of all, I think you just called me a kook, and I take exception to that. But everything else.
No, I was just trying to ham it up.
You just want to make sure that I was paying attention. So, what you're saying is way valid, and it makes me think of a story, really, of what happened to me, and I'll just take a minute and tell this story. When I was a very young mortgage banker, like, brand new into the business, didn't know what from what, didn't even know how to spell the word mortgage. I remember going to these association conventions, and in any of these things, and every industry has this, there's an expert panel, and typically the expert panel is just that it's the experts, and you want to learn the best practices from the expert. And time and time again, I would attend these things, and I just couldn't relate. They were so far beyond where I was, as far as career wise, that the suggestions that they had were very similar. I kind of had the reaction that you just had. I'm like, well, I can't do those things. I don't have a team of people.
Yeah, they're talking about teams. Exactly.
Yeah. And I remember one time in particular, there was a panel, and there were five people in the panel. I remember it like it was yesterday. The first two people went, and it was all the unrelatable things, like, I just couldn't I'm like, that's great for them, and maybe one day I can do some of those things, but I can't. And it almost turned me off, as opposed to turn me on, right? I'm like, this is actually defeating for me to hear this. And then the third guy went, and he awkwardly pulled the microphone up to his mouth, kind of like where he was talking like this into the mic.
Got it.
Yeah. There you go. And he was a little disheveled. And he was a little kind of awkward. He was more of an introvert than an extrovert. And he's in sales. And he said he pulled the microphone close, and he said, I call five people a day. And then he pushed the microphone, and everybody's looking around going like he was done, that was his thing. And everybody looked around, and then all kinds of questions went up. Well, what do you mean by that? Who do you call? What do you say? And he pulled the microphone close again, and he's like, I literally just call five people a day. And there was some Q & A that went back and forth. And bottom line was he really didn't have any systems around who he called, what he said. He was actually a pretty awkward guy, but his numbers, his results showed that he was wildly successful. And I remember thinking to myself at that time, I can't do what those other people up there do, but I can do that, and I started calling five people a day. And I'm not going to say that that's what got me going in my career as a mortgage banker, but man, it helped. And my point of bringing that up, where you call hogwash on Michelle's story is this. If you're listening to this podcast episode right now, and you're like, man, I'm glad Steve said that because come on, man, I can't do all know, whatever. I just need to try harder. Okay, maybe, and I'll give you that, but I wonder if some of the things that you've already heard on this episode or some of the things that we're about to talk about, I wonder if you could even in the middle of the hogwash, if you could pull out one or two things from it and apply it to your life or apply it to your business, where it would make a difference. So, I hear you, Steve, on your hogwash. And again, very valid and I get it. But I also think that maybe it's not a weeklong silent retreat, but maybe you could take a minute or two in the morning and meditate or breathe. I wonder. I mean, my Apple Watch, it's got a little thing on it where I can do it for a minute, doesn't need to be a full week, and maybe that's what you pull out of today's episode. So, does that make sense that I answer the question that way?
Yeah. And again, my little point and counterpoint was to do exactly what we did. Like to draw that out. I listen to Michelle's story and I'm like, well, I guess I like to know, yes, some people call hogwash, and I look at it and go. And yet, we all read poems like The Road Not Traveled or The Road Less Traveled or The Road Not Taken, by Robert Frost, and we see that's definitely going against the grain. The grain would suggest get up, work really hard, like, keep going, keep going, and she's doing something that's against the grain. Number one, we all seem to esteem that somewhere else. Number two, what I think I'm hearing you say is actually what she's doing, and this is sort of you and I are especially when we're doing podcasts, we're people of metaphors, right? This is the ultimate Karate Kid analogy. Again, another movie we watched. Paint the fence up, down, wax on, wax off, sand the floor. We get all that, right? Oh, we see this. That's what she's doing.
Yeah.
But other people want to learn karate, right? I mean, that kid wanted to learn karate because he was getting his butt kicked at school, and he wanted to learn to fight back, and so Mr. Miyagi is like, yeah, I can teach you that here, come over and sand the floor. Sounds like Michelle's going, yeah, I can help you with sales. Go on a silent retreat. Yeah, take care of yourself.
That's right. It's the self-care piece, and I think the reason that we're bringing it up is it's not just Michelle. As I look around at either, my know, personal coaching clients or Rewires clients in, you just you see it there, and you see it with this group over here, and you're like, oh, that group, they're not doing so good over there. I wonder, and maybe the self-care thing is down, and it's an observation that I think both of us have made over the decades that we've been coaching people is there's a connection there, and I want to make sure that we address that connection, because I am seeing it right now. I'm seeing there is a separation between people that are getting very caught up in whether it's the political happenings of the day or how bad the economy is, or you don't understand my situation. I don't have time to eat right or work out or get more sleep or whatever it is. There's a separation between those people and their results and the people that are like, no, that's important enough where I'm going to pay attention to that, because I see the direct effect that it has on, again, the things that we're talking about, the results that you're looking for at work and oh, yeah, in your life.
But I love that Jason. When you began your story about Michelle, I got a couple questions. Do you mind?
Let's do it.
When you began that story, you actually used the word non negotiables, and like we do in The Insight Interviews, I was listening to you. You did this to when you interviewed me and when we were going back and forth like, you know, question I asked myself, number one, I was like, what are my non negotiables? That was one of the questions I asked, like, okay, I'm hearing about Michelle. I was listening. I wasn't multitasking. I was like, what are mine?
What non negotiables do I have? And then I asked a different question, and it was this Jason, which am I negotiating? That's a big word, right? Like non negotiables. But you know what? From time to time, I think I actually do negotiate some of my non negotiables.
I tell you what I see as far as the point that you're making. I see a lot of people, the preponderance of the people walking around with only negotiations, right?
But even when I get them, like, number one, it would be one cool step to step back for myself and go, what am I willing to say as a non negotiable? All right, great step. I don't think a lot of people even do that. I don't even know if a lot of leaders do that. That's a great step. But then to actually have awareness around in any given season, because that's the deal. If this person, if Michelle's, in this difficult season or whatever, I gotta be honest with you, you and I have both faced difficult seasons. And when we were in those seasons, which non negotiables, if you could see my little air quotes, did.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, I don't know if it was part of her story. Maybe she just stayed with her non negotiables. That's the way you told the story. But I want to encourage the people out there, which seemingly is also me, for the record, that I do have non negotiables, and frankly, there's one or two that came to my mind that I'm actually negotiating that. That's not as non negotiable as I want it to be in my mind and my heart. And so there's an examination there.
Well, I think that's part of the reason that we're doing this podcast right now, this particular episode, is for that awareness for you to ask your stunt, use Steve Scanlon. But people that are listening to ask themselves that. In coaching, that's exactly what we do, right? We're asking the tougher questions. You know, we have an onboarding survey that asks about how much sleep you're getting, how are your relationships? Is your nutrition and your water and alcohol intake the way that you would like it to be? Like, there are questions that we ask because if a person would desire to talk about those things and it's only up to them whether they want to talk about those things or not, and they happen to be negotiating things that they might verbally say are non negotiable, well, there's an opening for a conversation, and there's an opening for a gap closure, a bridge to be built from where they currently stand to where they're looking to stand. And, yeah, I love you bringing up the am I negotiating with my non negotiable, and just to examine those things and go, okay, well, gosh, which ones are they?
Well, I had an epiphany when you were saying that. So again, if I can have one, I would hope some of our listeners could. I got to be honest that wasn't the most pleasant of epiphanies. To be honest with you, I'm really glad you brought up the work that we do because that is the work that we do. When we feel that on people that we would be the coaches that would be willing to step in and gracefully, thoughtfully, but also adamantly be with people in those conversations. Dude, you just coached me. You were playing the role of a coach. I mean, you didn't mean to, but maybe you did. I don't know. And you're like, oh, let's make it about them. No, actually, you've coached me.
Well, I think that's a perfect example of what we do. If it's okay, I want to go back to Michelle's situation, and then again, if you're listening to this and you're thinking about some of your own stuff there's some pitfalls, and what I want to say is this. I'll give you another for instance, some of the things that I run into personally. So, I'm an outdoorsman. I like to be outside. I like to hike; I like to climb. Hunting and fishing is something that I'm aware of and try to do a ton of, and what I see in that industry and it's the same in business as well is, boy, there's all kinds of organizations out there that will sell you the perfect gear and exact right equipment that's the most up to date and technologically advanced. And in business it's the same thing. I'm going to sell you the right technology and AI is the buzzword these days and am I wearing the right clothes? Am I using the right equipment? Am I saying the right scripts? All of those things, yeah, they're important. I'm not going to say they're not important, but they're all the technicals of either the hobby or the business or the industry, and what I want to say is Michelle was focusing more on the mindset piece. What you and I have called lately, the adaptive piece. And it's again, it's not as fun, it's maybe not as marketable as the latest and greatest piece of equipment or AI but, boy, is it something that yields results.
Yeah, but that gets us, first of all, you and I have been talking about this, but I think it's incumbent upon us to give credit where credit is due. Technical versus Adaptive Solutions and Challenges comes right from the work of Robert Keegan and Lisa Leahy, right? From their book and Work on Immunity to Change. These are two Harvard trained professors who are research scientists and they noted that there are technical things, like you said. There are technical things time blocking and you listed out other technical.
Yeah, for sure.
But then there are adaptive things that's their language, right? There are things like mindset and stuff. And we've even noticed as a company if we come to our clients and go you know you need to do you need to take a retreat and you need to work out and put it in your calendar and go and do that. Well, the going and doing it and putting in the calendar is technical. The idea that you would be focused on your mind is an adaptive thing.
Right on.
Again, that's a whole podcast in and of itself technical versus adaptive but needless to say, both are important. Well yeah, but it's the adaptive stuff that we get super excited about at Rewire because if you try to fix an adaptive problem with technical changes you will likely not be successful.
"Which by the way precisely reminds me of, Jason, when people make New Year's resolutions, I'm going to go do this thing, I'm going to lose weight, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this. That's it. Day one I'm going to go do this thing. Well, they didn't at all think about some of the adaptive changes that are necessary to get that done. They just tried to solve whatever thing they're trying to resolve and resolve with technical things."
And so, you and we in the coaching process we get more into the adaptive stuff and that's what it sounds like Michelle is working on too which is what I think gives us long term success. Right?
Well, it's not just you think, it's what we serve.
I took over Keegan and Lehigh's work I think as if Im like-
No, no that's not what I mean. I mean it's just when we lift our head up and we look at our clients and we look at any industry where the leaders are being successful versus non successful leaders and we're like, okay yeah, they're doing adaptive things. They're doing the hard work. They're doing the lifestyle types of things that matter and getting enough sleep and paying attention to what you're feeding your brain with and what you're feeding your body with and making sure that you're challenging yourself physically and mentally. In order to show up during the board meeting or the sales situation or whatever it is that you do in your industry, to show up as the best version of you. It just matters. And yeah, again yes, it is what we think but you just look at the evidence and it's everywhere.
Well dude look we're getting close.
Yeah. Yeah.
There's really one other thing that jumped out of me. You sort of alluded to it in the story with Michelle and that is some of what she was getting benefited what she was benefiting know retention, and you talked about some other things. It felt to me and again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I really was trying to stand outside and know a leader, an influencer in an organization. I'm hearing about this person Michelle. Yeah, okay. That helps Michelle. That sounds really cool and maybe that's working for her and that's cool. How do you suspect what she was doing helps the organization? I mean, maybe that's obvious. I don't know.
No, I want to verbalize no, it's so funny, the things in plain sight that we miss. Yes, it's obvious, but I want to talk about it for a minute. I want to just call certain things out. The effect on the just I've seen this over and over again. There's been studies around this. The organization, as the leader goes, so the organization goes. So, when the leader is doing things like what we've described Michelle is doing, we've given all kinds of examples of other people as well, so goes the organization. The organization starts paying attention to the organization's health, the organization's mindset, which another word for that could be the organization's culture. And so, when the leader is taking care of themselves, then they show up in a way that other people, and not just individuals, but organizationally, they want to take care of the organization. And so, we just see it where the types of leaders that have a lifestyle similar to Michelle's that we've described, again, not every single circumstance, not every single situation, but more often than not, they've got a healthy organization and they've got a culture that they're proud of and that people want to come work for. Like, remember my example with Michelle and recruiting, people are calling her because they want to come work for her, and that's very different than most industries and most organizations where they're doing outbound recruiting. And so, it has every effect on how the organization does. And by the way, this is things like sales, bottom dollar, profitability, these are super tangible types of things come from some of these intangible or soft skill or lifestyle adaptive types of things.
Wow. Well, I actually came into this thinking like we always do, dude, we get to the end of this and there's so much there, right? What I have to do is step back and go, okay, let me just showcase a handful of things that I got. For one, I don't want to miss the fact that actually some of what she was doing, like the retreats, the taking care of herself, the sleeping nutrition, you mentioned some of that self, I don't want that to be missed. That's just solid, really good stuff. It reminded me some of my own non negotiables. Beyond that, it just caused me to ask a different question about non negotiables and maybe just kind of reviewing those in my life, and beyond that, to ask an even deeper question, what am I negotiating? And really come back to, yeah, right, but then I'm also walking away going, yeah, this has an impact that's far beyond just Michelle's little life. Right? It's great for her and it's great for her family, the cultural impact. So if you're a leader listening to this, it's a big deal.
Yeah, for sure.
And the other thing is what you did in your coaching, the way that you drew that out, the way that you asked her questions, that's what we do. And so, I dig all that. I almost want to just end it because I got enough here.
Well, hopefully so did the listener. I'm excited for when this episode drops and what we hear about it, because I have a feeling there's some of those directions that we went in that we'll need to dive deeper into in future episodes, which we will. But, yeah, good stuff here.
Well, great job, Coach. And we really are grateful for the work that we get to do in people's lives. So, dude, thank you. Got a ton of insights here, and as we end our time today, we have this thing, right? Like, you had some amazing insights as a result of hearing that story and participating it and drawing it out, and I got some by listening to it. But at the end of the day, it's the listeners. What did you get from that? Where do you resonate with what were your ahas? What little, I loved what you said there. It doesn't have to be this big thing. You might not go on a retreat like that. Maybe you'll go, I need to reexamine just some silence in my life, little bits of and so what are yours, right? What are your insights? And that's what really matters the most.
Yeah, right on, right on. Well, that's it, Steve.
Yeah, we'll see you next time here on our podcast episode. Peace.
See you later, everybody.
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