As a devoted student and practitioner of the arts of listening, awareness, and stillness, Jack would say those are hard-learned and hard-earned skills. He was a butcher for thirty years, but his real vocation was being present with his customers and serving them through listening. After retiring, he began working for various nonprofits and has been a speaker and trainer for leadership teams and individuals. He now serves as a professional mediator where he helps to resolve conflict through the active practice of listening and helping the parties involved to feel heard. A skillful musician, Jack plays multiple stringed instruments and has a deep and abiding passion for the music of Bob Dylan and the invitation to meaning presented through his lyrics.
“Creating sacred space means you will not have two listeners or two speakers. One person will speak, and another will listen. That's part of what sacred space is.” – Jack Bevilacqua.
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This is a little bit of an interesting and different interview. This is a little bit more of a conversation that I had with my coach, Jack Bevilacqua. It is on a very particular topic, and I wanted to interview him on the topic of Sacred Space, so we just made an Insight Interview out of it. It'll probably be a little bit more like a conversation between Jack and me, but we thought it was certainly worthy and hopefully helpful to the people. Here we go. I hope you have a great day.
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Jack, welcome to the show. For those who don't know, it's fair to make a quick little introduction. I am the CEO of Rewire, Inc. We are effectively a coaching, training, and development company, and we do a lot of things out in the world. One of the things we do is this show. We have a very particular topic that I get to ask you about. For people who don't know you or the world, this is Jack Bevilacqua. Can you summarize your whole life for us in twenty seconds or less, please?
No.
Jack, we're together to do a very particular thing, and as a way of setup, people should know this about you. Certainly, this isn't meant to embarrass you in any way, shape, or form, but when I'm speaking in and around the world, or sometimes in my coaching sessions, one-on-one with people, I describe you as someone who has been a mentor, a teacher, a friend, and one of the kindest people that I know. You don't want to ever be told by a group of people that you're one of the wisest people I know, but you are.
In particular, there is a topic that I want to discuss with you. This discussion, Jack, was born out of the idea that I was working with a group of people on a concept that you taught me. You'll probably maybe share where you were taught this topic. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. I've been talking about this topic for many years because it was many years ago that we worked through the topic.
I'm not going to bury the lead. I'll just tell everyone the topic is called Sacred Space. As a group of people, as individuals, as leaders, and as people in our own lives, how can we learn to practice this concept of Sacred Space? We’re going to have a dialogue. I'm going to ask you some questions about this. Largely, what this came out of, Jack, was I was doing a workshop with people, and I described this when I went over it, and people were intrigued by this.
It’s not taught in the way that we think about it maybe. As I was sharing it, there was one individual in particular who was captured by this. When we were done, he sent me an email and he said, “This is great.” He loved it. He said, “Do you all have any further resources in the way of books, trainings, or online courses? How can I learn even more about that?” I had to say, “Not really.” We didn't have anything. I had this brainstorm, “Why don't I get Jack on the call? Why don't I interview Jack?” You introduced me to this idea, and it's something that you've been walking with for many years.
That's what we're doing here. Maybe we can create a resource for Sacred Space. People can go back. Unfortunately, they don't get to interact with it necessarily because you and I are talking about it, but it might be okay for you and me to talk through it. What is it and where is it applicable? Let's start with that. Jack, if I walked up to you on the street and said, “Tell me about Sacred Space. What is that for you?” What are we even talking about here? If someone asked you that, what would you say?
Walking up to me on the street and asking, “What is Sacred Space?” I would naturally respond by asking, “Steve, tell me how you hear that phrase and what it means to you so I can understand what you're asking me.” That's where I would start.
I would answer, “Let's ask Jack.”
I don't mean to be evasive. I'm usually an invasive species. The reason I say that is because when I talk about Sacred Space, it's not a semantics argument. I'm using I statements to just tell you what I mean by that. I'm talking about creating an atmosphere for people to interact with each other and come to understand and know each other on a deeper level, depending on how often they communicate. Sacred Space, to me, talks about the atmosphere that is conducive to people who are speaking, feeling safe enough to tell what they've experienced, what they think, and how they feel.
At some level, they feel safe enough that the person listening is interested and wants to understand. That atmosphere of safety, I like to call it atmosphere. I can tell you what I've experienced. I can tell you how I feel or what I think because, over time, I've come to trust that you're interested and you would listen and try to understand. I'd like to be seen and understood.
When I talk about Sacred Space, I'm talking about two people in a conversation and a relationship. The person speaking, if they feel safe, then they're going to be as vulnerable and open as they can. I think of it this way. If you want me to understand you, and you're the speaker, you're going to speak to me, then you have to be as vulnerable and open as you feel safe being.
A sacred space is about two people in a conversation in a relationship. If people feel safe, then they will be vulnerable and open.
In other words, you have to help me understand. I don't know what you've experienced, how you feel, and what you think. I'm the learner, you're the teacher, but the atmosphere determines how safe you feel and how deep we can go with each other. We don't have to rush that process. On the other hand, the other person in the conversation is the listener. They can switch roles. Sacred Space means that you're not going to have two listeners or two speakers. One person will speak and another will listen. That's part of what Sacred Space is. Role definition, job description.
The speaker has a job to help the listener understand by being as out front and open as vulnerable as they feel safe being. You have to have boundaries. You don't tell everybody everything. The listener then has a job as well. The listener's job is to try to make sure that the speaker feels that they've been heard and understood.
To create Sacred Space, there have to be some skills to do that. As you see on television, email, and text in our world, you see people not connecting because the space isn't sacred to them. It's combative. My job in that circumstance is to be right and to win somebody over my way of thinking. That destroys Sacred Space. That'd be my initial explanation of what I mean when I say that.
I had told you, even before we did this interview, that this was going to be a little of an emergent process. I didn't know what was going to emerge. I don't have any notes for this.
That's what I could tell you about myself. My journey is around before and after not graduating from high school.
As I had mentioned, this is an emergent process. I don't have notes. I'm not following anything. There were two things that you said that jumped out at me that maybe we can expound upon a little bit. You used the word many times and you accentuated it, I heard some energy around you about the word atmosphere. You liked that. These Sacred Spaces, in part, create an atmosphere. Maybe we could talk a little bit more about not just what the atmosphere is but how we create that. What's it like to create that atmosphere of safety? If I heard you right. That'd be one thing.
The second thing, one of the things that I appreciate about the way that you've talked to me about this over the years is there are some skills associated with it. It doesn't have to remain in this ethereal, esoteric thing. There are some things that we can practice. We might not be perfect and we might get it wrong from time to time, but we can practice doing it. Those are two things that jump out at me. 1) How can we practice creating that atmosphere of safety? 2) Are there other skills that we can look at that you could help us with? Like, “Here are some skills to practice.”
Could you write down those two things so you can remind us or something?
That's why I didn't give you 3 things because I can almost remember 2. Three, I would've had to write.
I forgot the milk. I got the chocolate, though.
One's the atmosphere. How do we practice creating an atmosphere of safety?
You can do that initially, but it's also a process. Creating a safe space opens people up to be able to tell their stories. I like to think of their story as what they've experienced, how they think, and what they feel, which comes out of those experiences. Creating Sacred Space is not a joke. When you asked me at the beginning of this conversation if I walked up to you and asked you what Sacred Space is, what would you say? I would say, “Tell me what you think it is. Tell me about your understanding of that.”
Maybe the first thing in creating Sacred Space is dropping into wanting to understand another person. The result of that is that even at the grocery store with a checker or whatever, I've practiced over time listening for people who might want to tell me something about their lives. Even on short notice, I can drop into that. I have to remind you of something I've talked about. That is my history, the rings of my tree, what I've experienced, and out of those experiences, what I've come to think, believe, and my feelings based around all that. Those are sacred.
I've shared in many groups the idea that if my experienced thoughts and feelings are like the rings of my tree, then for me to create Sacred Space, what I have to practice is taking my experience, thoughts, and feelings. I brought this out so I could show you that thinking about it like this, this was a year that the beetle ate the wood. Here we have a dry spell. This was a really good year here. If you can read these, this is my life, what I've experienced. If I want to create Sacred Space, I usually have to be the one that starts, not always, but almost always, because it's in my mind to open a safe and sacred space for somebody else.
To do that, I have to think about my own space. Here's my sacred drawer. I carry this mini version in my pocket. It’s my experience, thoughts, and feelings. I have to put those somewhere because otherwise, when people start telling me their experiences, thoughts, and feelings, I start thinking about whether I've experienced or not experienced that. I want the conversation to be about me. “I know what you mean.” That doesn't tend to create Sacred Space.
The first thing that I've learned to practice is to take my stuff, which is sacred. I don't throw it away or put it in the garbage to serve somebody else. I put it in my sacred drawer, which goes into my sacred place inside of me, still there being honored, my experience, being honored, my feelings, my thoughts. To create Sacred Space, I have to put this in a Sacred Space. I give my attention to thinking about the other person. That's how I create Sacred Space.
My inner being is not yelling to be seen and heard at that moment. It's offering the space to someone else. I can't do that if I don't honor my opinions, views, thoughts, feelings, and experiences. I have those in a sacred place. I may or may not open those up to the other person, depending on how this goes. That's what happens. I would say that's the first thing. To do that, I have to want to do that. I also have to know if it's a safe enough space for me to do that. Sometimes, it's not appropriate for me to do that because that person has injured me or hurt me, or myriads of other reasons. I have to decide. I make a decision.
I would like to offer my presence to this person in these few moments or this hour and a half. When I do that, then what I practice is putting away the rings of my tree into that inner place of safety. That's the starting point. It's so much about me being willing to do that. Am I willing to do that? Do I want to do that? What I've practiced over the years is I have such a desire to do that because it's taught me that people like me. I understand when people say to me, “Thanks for listening. I appreciate that.” It's been surprising to me because that wasn't the person I was before I opened up to these ideas and before I started to practice.
Part of the rings of your tree, based on how you ended that. Thank you for that. We're going to have a whole another one of these maybe when you're back from your trip, you're going on a beautiful trip. When you come back, we'll do a whole thing on waitering and waitressing as, as a concept. That'll be volume two. You have to want to do that.
I'm intrigued by this idea because you've been practicing this and you can fall into that and know you're in that situation in the grocery store. Do you find it sometimes based on your rings and what sometimes people are saying? Is it sometimes easier or harder for you? Is it natural for you? Do you find yourself from time to time going, “I want to say this and get that out there?”
What are some of the mechanics of that when you feel that? You've been practicing this for a lot of years, but I still wonder. that seems human, it certainly seems part of our world. I'm just curious, even though you practice this well, is it intuitive to you? Is it natural to you or do you have to remind yourself, “I'm doing this now?”
I don't think you ever get over the need to practice. Maybe metaphorically, the way I can talk about it is when I hear a great fluid guitar player, which could be anybody's opinion, but for me, when I hear somebody that is a great guitar player and I listen to them, it helps me understand that all that work of getting fundamental help for how to play the guitar, and then recognizing that you have to practice to achieve the fluidity.
When you get any taste of being fluent in something, language, speaking, or playing music we could name a million things. When I experience as a human being some level of fluency, it's so attractive to me. It feels so good that it makes me want to do the hard work. It motivates me to work hard because the outcome is so beautiful.
The outcome I'm experiencing with Sacred Space is human relationships. Sometimes, when people will say something to me prefaced with these words or something close to it, I've never told anybody this before, but Sacred Space, it's sacred. I want to take my shoes off. It's so sacred to connect with another human being and have them tell you something that matters.
The sacred space is about human relationships.
I've told you this story, but one of my high school teachers, because I had dyslexia, I didn't turn in any written papers. She had me read something. She sat and listened to me when I was seventeen years old and asked me what I thought. When she handed out graded papers later, I didn't turn in any papers, she gave me a paper with a question she'd asked. S
he had written down some of my responses and said, “A wonderful comprehension.” Having somebody listen to me, she didn't tell me about her education and everything she knew and what she'd learned. She asked me what I thought. Even though I'm in my 70s now, I was 17, and that might've even been the moment that experience made me want to offer to somebody else.
Little by little, over time, as I've learned the fundamentals and then been willing to practice them, I've experienced somebody being helped not by my great skill. The skills are so basic, learning to listen, what it means to listen, all those things. Is it hard? Yes, sometimes it depends on who it is. These days, when it's political, we're so divided politically, I find that I have a real desire when somebody says the opposite side of politics that I have in my rings. I hear them saying things that are misguided and idiotic. I find I have such a desire to say, “Where do you get your information?” Instead of saying that, I find myself wanting to say, “That's a lot. Let me see if I understand what you're saying.”
Ask how and what questions. Is it hard? It is hard, but it's not as hard as it used to be because I was so intent on being heard. Part of it is age, just being old enough. I have a lot of scars. I didn't get out of learning this without scars. There's a great new song by Iris DeMent and she says, “Life is hard. Who isn't scarred? Say a good word.” It's like that.
You had asked me to remember. I love it when you say that to me and supposed to googling something or whatever. You had asked me to remember two things in the context of what we're doing. I so want to dive into that and ask that. We have a little bit of a limitation of time, and I don't even know. I just want to hear that. First of all, people are tuning into this pause because I'm going to move on and ask the next thing. Isn't that almost a far side cartoon as if to say, “Jack, I got you. Next.”
I'm famous for telling pastors of churches that one sermon a month is more than enough. Let's try to dig in and see what we think about it.
Having people maybe hear that and chew on it would be wonderful, which is nice. We can have this format. Read again. That's why partly we're doing this. You did address it pretty well about how we create this element of safety. You spoke about the rings of the tree and what that meant. When you do that and put it in your thing, that in and of itself is part of the fundamentals of creating safety.
It's making me safe and preparing me to be safe.
The second part of what I asked, I want to go back to some of the fundamentals. This is something that you have spent years talking to me about. I don't know that I have listened well enough yet. Maybe I don't have enough scars yet. I'm trying. You said something to me one time about the fundamentals of you and yourself. You're a great guitar player, and you wouldn't maybe say that, but it's something that you practice a lot and you talk about the fundamentals. I've called you on a Saturday morning, “What are you doing?” You're practicing scales. How long have you been playing the guitar, Jack?
Since junior high school.
When was the last time you practiced scales?
Just before this interview.
Can you just do a scale for us?
I'm not going to do that.
I wanted to hear a scale.
Good try.
You taught me about a scale one time. I remember that. Fundamentals, Jack. If someone tuning into this said, “I want to practice this,” they maybe haven't thought about it in these terms, so they're not going to go off and be the greatest guitar player ever with this topic, but they can begin to practice. Much like you taught me on the guitar, there are some certain fundamentals about the guitar board and the frets, and you broke it down into some certain basic things. If we could, and someone said, “I'd like to practice more of that,” how might you talk to us about the fundamentals and how someone might practice the fundamentals of Sacred Space?
I guess maybe the most basic thing would be the willingness piece. If you're with your brother-in-law, workmate, spouse, or friend, and you realize that they're telling you something, not just the weather, but they're telling you something. Maybe a real basic fundamental would be to try to teach yourself to become aware that somebody is speaking to you and that they're saying something. That might be a basic fundamental. Just being aware in the course of the day. I could go back over my day and think, “Who did I see today? Who did I have contact with? What did they say?”
A great practice for me has been that when I go back over who I saw now and what people have told me, I might have missed something. Sometimes, it comes to my mind, “I forgot that person told me they have a doctor's appointment.” It could be anything, but maybe something like that. One of my practices, it's what I call never too late. I find it's quite a nourishing human experience. When somebody says to me, “Remember when we were talking the other day and you said this?” They mentioned something I said. “I'm not sure I understood what you meant by that. Can you tell me more about that?” That's miraculous.
I called one of my daughters and I said, “When we were together the other day, you mentioned this. It came back in my memory that you had said that. I wanted to check in and see what happened with that. How did that go?” That's a great practice. I would call it awareness. It's never too late. When it comes back into your mind, you can check in with yourself and say, “Would it be appropriate to make a phone call or re-up on that?” It's trying to teach me how to put myself aside, not throw myself aside, but put my stuff in a sacred place so that I can listen deeply to somebody else.
The piggyback of that practice is when I'm with somebody, it's very helpful for me to learn. It's not the only two questions, but it's so helpful for me to learn. If I ask somebody how or what, that tends to open the story. When I think of my life, I realize I didn't know that when I was younger and I didn't do that. What it was like to be with me was I was a person who was interested in telling you what I thought and experienced and what and how I felt. Now, some people who know me at this stage of my life, if I tell them that, they don't believe me.
My daughters have experienced me as opinionated and constantly trying to control them. It's been so many years since I acted that way and didn't create Sacred Space for them that now I'm amazed at what they'll tell me because they no longer think I'm going to jump in with my opinion since I'm no longer doing that. When I ask, “How did that feel? What was that like?” It's really hard for people to say yes or no. How did that feel? What was that like? Just to practice that, to have somebody be asked by you how they feel, what they think, and what they experienced.
I've had the good fortune and blessing to be with you for all these years. To have you say that now there's a part of me that personally feels nourished by those words. There's also a part of me, just so you know, that because it seems fundamental. As you said, it's basic. I don't mean to be cynical here, Jack. I don't want to go off on this tangent per se, but for something so basic and human, I can't imagine someone's going, “I don't want anyone doing that to me.” It's pretty human to want to feel heard and all of this stuff, it feels basic. I don't know if we need to create a cul-de-sac around if it's so basic, human, or nourishing. How do you describe a world in social media? Why do you suppose we're not doing this more?
I would answer it like this. As a society and as a culture, we've been trained to give answers. When people ask a question, they either expect an answer or they don't want you to answer, but you do anyway. Our culture is so like this with each other. When somebody has strong opinions about something, they expect me to either agree with them or expect an argument. It's an expectation that our culture is producing.
My experience has been that when somebody says something and is intent on some viewpoint, they expect me to agree or argue. It's very different for them when I say, “That's interesting. Can you give me some background on how you came to that viewpoint? It's fascinating to hear you talk about that.” It's changed the atmosphere.
It does take practice. When I first started learning some of these skills, I had a 3x5 card. Sometimes I would be on the phone with somebody and they would tell me something and I would say, “That is so interesting. Could you say more about that?” I didn't have it in me. I had to practice. Sometimes, my wife would say, “Don't do that thing.” She'd tell me something and she was used to me either arguing or going silent. I would say, “If I heard you right, it sounds like,” and she would say, “Have I heard you?” It took me a long time to find my naturalness. I was awkward with it.
We probably got to tie this up here pretty quickly, Jack. I'm embarrassed to tell you that years ago, I called you one time to say that I was experiencing some challenges with my daughter. You listened well. I call you sometimes and you can attest to this. I want answers from you. I want that, too. You had taught me the concept. I don't know how you said it. I make up a story about how you said it. Whether it's how you said it or not, I have no idea.
My story about what you said to me was, “Steve, are you familiar with the seven greatest words of the English language?” You might not even remember telling me that. You’ve already said it now, by the way. “I was thinking about what you said.” I wrote that down. For years and years, I had it on a Post-it note on my mirror in my bathroom. I didn't write all the words. It was just IWT, whatever. That's a terrible-looking acronym.
I have subsequently offered that to other people as something that I'm practicing, not to tell them to do, but I'm practicing. When I have done that, one of the things that I've noticed about that script is that I don't like scripts because it's not the naturalness we're looking for, but the concept was really good. For me, as a script, there was a built-in authenticity to it. I can't just say those words without thinking about something you say. It wasn't a script and that helped me.
You and I are talking about maybe it's a friend, your spouse, a brother, or a sister. In my world, maybe it's a colleague, your boss, or someone who works with you or for you. We could practice this. I don't want to summarize this into some business theorem, but why wouldn't this work in business? We do spend more of our waking hours, many of us at a certain age, in business and work and doing things. I have found this to have tremendous applications in our work and other places. Thank you for teaching me. I was thinking about what you said. That's enough, don't you think?
It's more than enough.
Is there anything about either the fundamentals or the topic itself that's coming to you right now that we get off and you reach out to me and go, “Steve, I was maybe hoping you'd ask me that or bring that up?” Is there anything else about it that’s either the fundamentals or safety or the concept itself?
Something that helps me that I would consider to be a real basic, a real fundamental, yet it's something I have to be conscious of to practice. That's the acrostic for the word WAIT. A Catholic nun I met with originally told me, “When you're with somebody, look across and look at that word hovering over their head.” She was quite humorous. She forced me to say, “Word hovering over their head?”
She said, “Can you see it? It says WAIT and it stands for Why Am I Talking?” That's been helpful to me. There's a little voice inside of me that wants to tell you everything I know about everything. It feels good at this stage in my life to be able to not tell everybody everything I think about everything. It's wonderful to want to know what someone else thinks. That's taking practice.
Jack, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for this. When I read this, I have this inkling that I'm going to come back and do the, “What about this and what about that?” I'll probably call you on a Wednesday and ask you that. I know you're going on a long trip. I wish you well. I hope you are safe. You're in our thoughts and prayers. Thank you for doing this and taking the time. Grateful for you. Be safe. We'll talk to you when you get back. Thank you.
Thanks for all the kindness you've shown me over the years.
Thank you, Jack.