Dr. Jon Finn is the Founder of "Tougher Minds" an Award-Winning Consultancy and author of The Habit Mechanic. He has been an expert in all thing’s performance psychology, resilience, and leadership science for over two decades, and has worked with top companies and some of the top athletes in the world, always aiming towards how to adopt habits that can make you reach greatness at an elite level.
“We live in a world where we have more knowledge at our fingertips about how to manage stress, about how to be at our best, about how to sleep well. But we don't do all we know we should do. We do what we're in the habit of doing.”
-Dr. Jon Finn
Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Insight Interviews- Powered by REWIRE- Powered by REWIRE. I have a really, really cool guest today and in a lot of ways sometimes we bring on people who are leaders in particular industries and CEOs of this and that. Today's guest probably is a CEO of some different things but in a lot of ways he does the work that we do here at Rewire in that he is a coach. He's got an amazing background that I'm going to let him tell you about and he's also a published author and we get to talk about that.
But the topic today, I think is going to be one that I think is going to be I say I think, but for me it's super interesting and one that impacts us all in that we're going to talk about habits, and we might talk about a whole bunch of other things because my guest has a very extensive background. So, without further ado, Dr. Jon Finn. Say hello to the inside. Interview world.
Hey, Steve. And hi everybody. Thanks for listening and thanks for having me.
Well, we're grateful to have you and already I'm grateful for the fact that we have this technology that allows us to have you in a different country and still be able to come together with us and do this work.
Jon, As we kick off, I guess I have a little bit of a tradition and before we get to know who you are and what you're writing about, here's my first question for you. You're in Great Britain today and that's where you're from and you've spent some time in the States. Before we get into the work that you do, here's what I want to know. I want to know what you're grateful for.
Living in a first world country, having a fantastic family, having the opportunity to help people to be at their best every day, using a very powerful approach based on cutting edge science. I get told most days about the positive impact, the work we're doing with people and I'm really grateful that I was able to write The Habit Mechanic because again, people are telling me almost on a daily basis how the book is changing their life. So, lots of things, Steve, thankfully.
Those are some good gratitudes. Well, I certainly want to get into your book and The Habit Mechanic and we're going to make that available through our show notes because you certainly picked a topic, Dr. Finn, that impacts, I was going to say so many people., and then I thought, well, everybody, like all seven point whatever billion people on planet Earth are impacted by their habits and so I think that's great. Hey, before we do that, would you mind I can certainly read your curriculum vitae.
I don't like to do that. Would you mind giving us a little background about who you are, where you are, how you came to writing this book, and just give us a thumbnail sketch of who Jon Finn is?
Sure, yeah. I've worked in the fields of resilience, performance, psychology, leadership, leadership science for over 20 years now. This is all I've ever done. I've not had any other career. I went to study sports science when I was 18, so I studied physiology psychology, motor control, nutrition, and I just really fell in love with the psychology, the sports psychology. I went to study a master's sport psychology. Off the back of that, I went to work in professional sport, working on the back-room staff in soccer and rugby and cricket, and worked in golf a lot. I saw some things in soccer around talent development, where I worked for one club where we won the league title against the odds.
We won the league by spending 50% less on player wages than our direct competitors, the teams that came second and third, it was a record in the UK for the least amount of money spent on player wages versus the league points we gained. And part of that was we were very good at signing young players from bigger teams. But what I noticed that some of these players, a few years later, we'd sell them on for 300 times profit. So, you might sign a player for a couple of hundred thousand, and we'd sell them on for millions and millions. But other times, some of the players, not just at our club, but the guys that were the best of the best at 18, 19, 20, people wouldn't even pay them a wage by the time they were 20, 22 ,23 to play professional soccer.
So, I got really interested in that, and I did a PhD around that. And the whole hypothesis was that I thought that the better these guys were at regulating themselves, regulating their emotions so they could turn up every day and work hard and persist, but also, they could perform under pressure in the arena. I thought that was key to them being successful or not. It wasn't so much about their technical ability. So I did my PhD in that area, and I got interested in emotional regulation as a habit, which I'm sure we'll talk about.
Did that piece of work. It got picked up by an organization called the Haberdash's Livery Company of the City of London, one of the organizations that own the City of London, pretty much, and they rent out their land to all the big corporates that operate in the City of London, and they typically now use that money to fund education. And the Haberdash is sort of an elite education organization in the UK. And as the London 2012 Olympic Games was approaching, they thought it would be really interesting to fund a fellowship in performance psychology.
And they liked my work and they said, can you go into some of our boarding schools? And you've got a blank piece of paper. Can you create a performance psychology program to help our young people to use these skills in sport, in their studies, but also in life? That program got a lot of attention in the national press. Other schools picked up on it.
So, I transitioned from working in elite sport to working in education. And then we also taught the parents what we were doing and the kind of schools we were working at. These are very elite schools in the UK, so quite high profile and high performing parents. And they said, well, this is much better than what we're doing at work, so can you come into our businesses and do this? So, we went from elite sport into education and then, you know, we work in the City of London, we work in the States, and we do great work, and we get great feedback, but we always knew that when we left the building, we might go to Denver for a week to work with someone like Janice Henderson, the hedge fund. But we knew when we left the building, some of the impact we had diminished. So, we knew that in order to help people to keep reprogramming their brains and sustaining these new helpful habits, we needed more robust resources and tools. And that's why we wrote the Habit Mechanic book, which is not just a normal here's one idea repeated ten times across ten different chapters. Book that mechanic took me over 20 years to write.
It literally is the manual, the things that we train people that we've tried and tested with over 10,000 people over 20 years. It's a Bible. It's a toolkit for success. And to supercharge the book, we created an app as well, which is called the Habit Mechanic University. So, my mission is to make it as easy as possible for people to be at their best by using insights from cutting edge science.
So that's the thumbnail of my journey. And the book and the app are the latest additions because they supercharge our ability to help people to make and sustain positive change.
Well, this is why I don't send people questions ahead of time, because just based on that quick little sketch of your background, I have 57 questions for you, which is I'm just kidding. I don't have that many, but I have so much. First of all, very kind of you to say soccer. That was good one. Good on you that you would say soccer to us. Silly.
Soccer is actually an English word. But yeah, we don't use it all the time.
No, that was nice of you. You made the comment. And I guess one of the first things I don't know. I have so many things. Let me try to narrow it down. I thought something that you said was very interesting is you had done this work in sports, you had done this work in education, you brought it over to corporations, and yet you knew that you'd go do these trainings and teachings, whether it was in sport or whatever, and there was a diminished again, I might not say it like you did, but it wasn't going to sustain and maintain. You probably knew about this work in the early two thousand s or whatever. You'd been studying it, you wrote a dissertation on it, you got a PhD on it, blah blah blah. And you knew that the work wouldn't sustain, which is, if I heard you correctly, what caused you to dig into habits and create material that helped to sustain? What was it and what is it about people that this worked just at an educational level, just telling people about habits or whatever, people don't just hear about it. Can you talk about what it is when you learn, like we knew when we left the building, according to you, that there would be a diminished return, there would be a diminishment of what they were able to retain or whatever? Before we get into the mechanics of the habit mechanic, I'd just really be interested in hearing what it is that you learned or maybe even why do humans have this diminished return even after they learn something?
Yeah, we don't do what we know we should do, is a short answer. We do what we're in the habit of doing, and habits are far more pervasive than we understand.
"We don't do what we know we should do, we do what we're in the habit of doing,
and habits are far more pervasive than we understand.
So, when I say don't think of a white elephant, you don't have to think of a white elephant. It's already in your brain. That's how automated and subconscious our brain is. Our brain is designed to save energy. That's its number one operating rule.
The things I learned at university and the things that I believe is still getting taught now don't work. We've got a mental health epidemic going on at the moment in the US is 58 million adults who've been diagnosed with a mental health challenge disorder. In the UK, we've got two and a half million people signed off sick. One and a half million of those, the primary reason they've been signed off, or the secondary reason is anxiety and depression.
We've got National Health Service projecting in 15 years' time an additional 39% of the working age population will have long term illnesses. And in the top five of that category, alongside cancer, will be anxiety and depression. We live in a world where we have more knowledge at our fingertips about how to manage stress, about how to be at our best, about how to sleep well, but we don't do all we know we should do. We do what we're in the habit of doing. So the psychology that was the main theoretical model that underpins sports psychology is cognitive behavioral therapy. And that's fundamentally flawed in terms of changing behavior, because it doesn't help people to do things differently. It helps them to know in a compelling way what they should be doing differently. There was a study published at the start of this year that was looking at population, a big population of people with depression, and there were two interventions to try to help these people with depression. One intervention was CBT, which is the gold standard psychological intervention. The other intervention was just doing something nice for someone every day. The people that did something nice for someone else every day had a much better improvement in their depression levels than the people in the CBT intervention. Why? Because those people were doing something differently.
The guys in the CBT intervention were just knowing something differently. So when I went into the field and I had my three degrees in psychology, and I was using the insights and using the tools I'd been taught, I understood that people are not able to do, especially under pressure. You see it in almost a much more intense way in professional sport. People know that they shouldn't get angry, that they shouldn't go out the night before an important training session or whatever, but they still do these things. So, I went and dug more and more into the neuroscience and really understood that, yeah, brains are running on autopilot because they're designed to save energy, but also to help people to make change. It's not just about the neuroscience. We have to tap into the behavioral science. And the problem with the behavioral science that's out there is very fragmented. We have different behavioral science experts spread throughout the world. All of their theories are interesting, and they add something to the conversation, but not one main behavioral science theory explains everything about why humans do what they do. So, what we did over the last 20 years is we created our own, called a nine action factors model. It threads throughout our work, it's threads throughout the Habit mechanic book, and it's essentially gluing together lots of these different models and showing a much better understanding of why humans actually do what they do and these factors that are driving our behavior every millisecond of every day and helping people to understand what they are so they can tap into them individually and collectively. So, I'm sure you've got some follow up questions.
Yeah, I'm really struck by first of all, it almost feels like a sequential pattern of we understand neuroscience and then we understand behavioral science. And while those things are good and they inform, again, I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but if we get more information about the stuff that we should do, at some point there might even be a detriment to that, because all it's doing is reinforcing a previously held belief about stuff. I know I should do that, or I shouldn't do that. And so, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're trying to get to that third component of actually bringing it to like, okay, the idea that you know or agree or whatever is still not going to create change until we actually do.
Yes, but if we think about, let's think of it from a leader's perspective, maybe I've got a direct report, and the direct report is not as good at communicating as they need to be, and it's hindering. So, I speak to my direct report, and I say, look, I think you could improve your communication skills. And we have a chat, and my direct report agrees, and I share a few tips and tricks about what I've learned about how to communicate well with people. And I do what I call verbal persuasion.
I persuade this guy to come on, give it a go. And he goes, okay, I'll give it a go. And then the week after he comes back, we have another big meeting. He behaves exactly the same. Nothing's changed.
Nothing's changed because he hasn't done anything differently, because tips and tricks don't change our behavior. If we want to change our brains, we have to prime the brain for change. We have to lay down some new neurobiological connections, and then we have to keep activating those connections to strengthen them. Tips and tricks and verbal persuasion don't do that. So, we have to use a different approach, which actually activates those three steps prime the brain, lay down some initial neurobiological connections, which can only be done by practicing, doing something different, and then support the person.
And we use what we call habit building plans, which activate our behavioral science model so that it's easier to keep practicing the thing that you want to work on. A really good example here is learning to drive. If you just read a manual about how to learn to drive, you're not going to be able to do it. If you want to learn to drive, there's a set of things and if you want to learn to drive, well, there are a set of things that we have to do. And there are a set of behavioral reinforcements that drive our habits and keep our habits on track so that we can drive safely and retain our licenses. And I can unpack all of that if you want me to.
Well, again, I'm sitting here already looking at the time, going, again, I have 19 hour's worth of questions for you, which probably is going to dive into part of me wants to go, hey folks, just buy the book and read the book. We just get the luxury of having you here today. One quick question. I have again, given your driving metaphor, at least in the United States, that happens around the age of 15 or 16. The prefrontal cortex is not fully developed, and I'm curious what your work has shown with regard to the ability to prime the brain. You had a three-step process there- is that over time, any more feasible, easier, harder to do with people at a young age who have perhaps more myeline and malleable stuff in their brain than it is to take a 45-year-old manager and teach them how to communicate more effectively? Has your research shown that it's easier, it's harder, it's possible, it's not possible. Just from an age perspective, what have you seen?
Yeah, well, this is my PhD work, so brain maturation is a central part of that. So we work with CEOs who are running some of the biggest companies in the world through to. We work with kids that are eight, nine years old. We teach them exactly the same thing.
The wiring in the prefrontal cortex starts around that age, eight, nine years old. And I was raised Catholic, you have your first confession around that age. So, they say, well, you're now responsible for regulating your own behavior. So that's really interesting. And what I see at that younger age, if we're kind of going backwards on a timeline from 15, but we teach young children to do what we call intelligent self-watching.
That is, to use their prefrontal cortex to monitor their behavior, monitor what they're thinking and they're doing, and start to analyze what is the helpful stuff that I'm thinking and doing. In other words, what are my helpful habits and what's the unhelpful stuff that I'm thinking and doing, and how can I start to get rid of some of that unhelpful stuff and replace it with more helpful stuff. And our head of business, she was telling me this lovely story one day. Her son was actually to rerun our program in schools. Some kids get our program every week, they use our planners, all this kind of stuff, and she said that she'd noticed her son was checking his phone a little bit too much. He was eleven years old at the time. He was checking his phone a little bit too much whilst he was doing his homework. And son's a little bit sensitive, want of a better term. So, as they were driving home from the school that night, she noticed this over the previous few days as she was driving home from school, she was plucking up the courage to say something to him.
Say, I noticed you've been checking your phone a little bit too much, and it might be a good idea to put that away. And she said, before I could say anything, he said, mum, I've been thinking, and I think I've been checking my phone a little bit too much whilst I'm doing my homework. So, I'm going to give that to you whilst I'm doing my homework tonight. Is that okay? So that's a real-life example of an eleven-year-old deploying regulation via their prefrontal cortex.
What's really interesting, so we know that for men, we get full wiring in our PFC about the age of 25, for females on average, is about a year ahead, but what's really interesting, there's some data that came out of the Brookings Institute in the US, looking at the economic impact of mental health challenges, and it shows that actually if you get diagnosed with a mental health problem between the ages of 27 to 35, by the time you get to 50, your average earnings is 24% lower than people that didn't get diagnosed with a mental health challenge between the ages of 27 to 35. So that age group all have fully myelinated prefrontal cortexes, yet some are still struggling to regulate. And if you habitualize poor regulation and it leads to a mental health problem, it's still affecting you way into your well, late forty's, fifty's and beyond.
So, I understand the question, but I think there's a lot of variables that are being thrown at people. So, PFC maturation is one variable, but I think the main effect variable for people dealing with wanting to change their behavior once you've got your EFC matured and it doesn't start to degenerate until 60 or so, just the volume of what's been thrown at people is the biggest problem.
And here we are. I want to ask you about what you're throwing at people because I feel like the work that you've done, you're trying to get to know there is something you can do about this. I suspect that you would tell this that this is accessible to anybody and at any age. However, one of the things that I'm trying to spin this in a positive way here, but I guess one of the things I'd like to know is what have you seen in terms of, okay, you have these things and we can read it in your book, but what have you noticed about people that embrace this at any age, whether we're adults in our prefrontal cortex? What have you seen about people that have embraced it versus people that, again, can even read your book and go, oh, that's really good information, and still don't make change? Are there any correlations that you've made about people who understand even your work, even the process, even the system, even this prime the brain, this habit thing, and still don't make a change? Is there something that jumps out at you about people that read it, get it, and still don't, and people that do? Anything jump out at you from your own research of your own work?
Yeah, it's all driven by the nine action factors, Steve. Mindset is one of the nine action factors, and we've seen Carol Dweck's work in that area. We talk about the habit mechanic mindset, but people might believe that they can change, but they're so overwhelmed, they don't have the capacity to practice anything differently. They're surrounded by people that are just doing all the unhelpful stuff. They've got big some of the most powerful companies on the planet deliberately hitting their attention every day, with things that allow those companies to sell ads, but are really detrimental for people's ability to focus, manage stress, do all the things that they want to do to be at their best.
This is a challenge with labeling. We're in a world now where labeling is when it comes to personality and diagnosis of lots of different things, we're doing that more than ever. But the labeling suggests that we're fixed, and we know we're not fixed. I was lucky over 20 years ago when I was doing my master's at a five-star research institute in the UK, guys there working, doing research for NASA and on all kinds of cutting-edge work and the psychologists I was studying on, they were really interested in all the neuroscience data coming out of France. Why is that important? Because the French government had decided to invest in functional MRI scanners. And this is where the first big sets of data from functional MRI scanners were coming out. Back then, we were learning brains are not fixed. They're malleable. They're changing neuroplasticity. What does that mean? It means the neurons in your brain are like plasticity and they're re-moldable. Back then, even the top neuroscientists in the world thought that we were fixed. We were fixed. When you stopped growing, your brain stopped changing. I think this is a really interesting point, Steve.
In the book, I think it's chapter four, I talk about use Roger Bannister as an example. Roger Bannister, for people that don't know, was the first person to run the sub four-minute mile, and he did that in the 1950s. And he did it whilst he was studying medicine at Oxford University. And he wasn't only studying medicine, he was actually a research scholar at Oxford, and he was using the Oxford Physiology Laboratories to study the role of oxygen in distance running. And he used that research to inform and change his own training habits and his own running style habits. At the time when Bannister was trying to break that record, there was two other serious athletes trying to do at the same time. It was like a three-person race to do it. You had Jon Landy, the Australian. You had Wed Santi, the American. Bannister's unique advantage was he was taking first principal insights from human physiology, what was going on inside the human body, and he was using those insights to inform how he trained and how he ran on the track when he was competing. He was looking inside the body. Wes Santi and Jon Landy weren't doing that. They were taking what I call a black box approach. They were looking at their training methods and their running times. They weren't looking at what was going on inside the body as they were actually training. The science that Bannister was using, from the treadmills to the peripheral physiological indices, measurement tools like measuring gas exchange, oxygen, carbon dioxide had been around since before World War II. So, we've been able to look inside the human body in that level of physiological detail since about the 1930s. We've only been able to look inside human brains for about 20-25 years.
And the human brain is the most complex thing in the known universe. So, I would argue that the psychological sciences are at least 70 years behind the physiological sciences. And I myself and my peers were some of the first people to go into professional sport as sports scientists, where professional sports team said, right, we're going to use first principal insights from physiology and biology and nutrition to condition our athletes. And that was about 20-25 years ago. And what we now see physically is a night and day difference in terms of the physical conditioning of professional athletes.
In psychology, we're just starting, because most of the theoretical models are informing most of the practice when it comes to psychology are informed by black box theories; theories that we developed before we actually understood how brains work, including psychometric tools, including things like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, et cetera, all designed before we understood how brains work. And although some of neuroscience is what we call confirmatory, some of that data confirms what we thought we understood, there are some really significant things that we've learned that do not confirm what we thought we understood. And in fact, they're polar opposite, neuroplasticity being one of them, REM maturation being another, just the sheer power of negative emotions being another. So, yeah, I think we're behind Steve, unfortunately.
Well, it's all just so fascinating to me. I'm particularly interested sometimes I have shared with people about the idea that neuroscientists again back in the early 2000s, certainly the 90s, had this idea of that the adult human brain was largely fixed, only to learn later, because of what you just said about fMRI scans, that it's not. I have found it interesting that that's not always met with positivity because ultimately, in the end, it seems like many people, if they are aware of the fact that change is possible, maybe they instantly perceive some sense of responsibility that they it would have been maybe just easier. And like you said, the brain doesn't really want to work right. We're going to conserve energy. So when I share actually, you have the ability to do this and go through this, I'm sharing it like you are, I'm sure, through the habit mechanic. This is great news. There's some people where they have to maybe navigate that news in a way, because it would have been a lot easier had I learned that it's just the way I am, Jon. I can't change. Well, your work is actually you can.
Yeah. And there's a whole industry set up around diagnosis of, just as an example, ADHD. And here's some medicine. Well, the medicine only deals with one of the nine action factors. We've actually started to work with the American Air Force and part of well the core driver for that, someone read the Habit Mechanic in the organization and reached out to us and said the book has made us realize that why we're not able to achieve what we want to achieve because we're just stuck. We know we want to, but we can't get our people to change their behavior because we're not activating the nine action factors. And, yeah, let's just take the reward and penalty systems, which is another of the nine action factors. It's become easier to say, well it's not my fault, it's my gene, it's not my fault, it's someone else's fault, it's not my fault. This is just the way that I am. Some systems have set up now to make it easier to do that rather than to face up to the real problem and deal with the real problem. It just really excites me because I think the physical conditioning example is really powerful. Before we use sports science, before we use first principle thinking about human physiology, we were just kind of sticking our finger up in the air and doing what we thought was the best way to condition people physically. Then when we injected the science, it's revolutionized our approach. The mechanic approach is what we call it is the same. It's the equivalent of what sports science did for physical conditioning.
It's going to do for mental performance, for human behavior, what that sport science has done, and we need it more than ever before because we've got a world. I would argue that today, Steve, is the hardest time in the human history to be healthy and happy and I think tomorrow will be harder still and the day after that will be harder still because the complexities of the post COVID world, and it's so complex and so difficult, and our brain is just being bombarded with stress to the point where more and more people are breaking down and the systems that we have in place to support people are just not fit for purpose. It's nobody's fault but they're not fit for purpose.
"They're good at getting people to know what they need to do,
but they're not good at getting people to do it."
This is the most horrible thing I've ever said on my show.... we're out of time. I can't even begin to thank you enough. I certainly am going to be diving more and more into the habit mechanic myself, getting into the nine action factors, understanding what it is you're saying and literally as you're talking, this is just me personally again, that I personally want to deploy the work myself, before I even promote it to others but I certainly do want to do that and my hope is that the readers will too. We'll make all this available in the show Notes. I want to thank you for your work. I want to have you back on. It sounds like the work that you've been doing is wonderful.
I love your passion around it. And before we sign off, is there anything about the work itself like The Habit Mechanic, and it sounds super comprehensive and good, but here you are saying it's so complex in the world, et cetera, et cetera, was there something today that I didn't get to asking you about the book? One thing at all that you were like, oh, I was hoping Steve would ask me about that, that I didn't that you'd like to speak to?
Yeah. Well, it is complex, but we've been unraveling it over the past 20 years and trying and testing. But, yeah, the good news, Steve, is that we actually for the last eight months, we've been training people to become certified Habit Mechanic coaches. Because, again, our mission is to make it as easy as possible for people to be at their best by using cutting edge insights from science. So, I'm spending most of my time instead of coaching other people, I'm coaching people how to use our tools and frameworks to coach their clients or working in organizations like, say, from the US.
Air Force through to big corporates through to people that are already coaches through to people that want to be coaches and are looking for a career switch. So you don't have to do this by yourself. The book is super simple to read. I actually had a meeting last week with the managing partner of a global law firm who I know through something called a think tank that I'm involved in called the Productivity Institute. And he said to me, Jon, I have to say something to you very candidly. Your book is so easy to read. These books are normally very complicated. He said, I couldn't believe how easy it was to read. So, it's simple to read, but there's loads of science behind it. And we unpack the science in a simple way.
But, yeah, the book is the Bible. It's the toolkit for success. It's a manual for life. Every time I read a chapter or listen to a chapter, I learn something new. And I wrote it.
We have the app where because I know something different, my life's in a different place. We've been told by people. I've read Charles Dunehig's book. I've read The Atomic Habits. The Habit Mechanic takes this to an entirely new level, not only because of the science that underpins it, but of the toolkit that you make available.
It's so comprehensive. We've got the app, which is free. We've got a community in there, people sharing and supporting. And yeah, if you're interested in bringing this into your own life, you can train to be a coach or bring it into your business, then, yeah, we're here to help wonderful.
Well, I don't know that I've ever ended the show with this, but I'm going to end with my gratitude. I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for your willingness to come on our show, and I'm thankful that I get to be in a day and age where people like you have taken this research and distilled it into understandable work. And it is my hope that people hear that and will not only go and read it, but deploy it, which I understand is the whole underpinning of the entire concept. So, I thank you. I thank you for your time.
There's so much more I want to ask you, and maybe we'll get to have you back, but thank you. Thank you for being here with us today.
Well, thank you, Steve, for having me. And thank you to everyone for listening.
We'll see you guys' here next time on The Insight Interviews- Powered by REWIRE. Again, like, I end all the time. It's not what Dr. Finn says. It's not what I say. It's not the questions, it's really your ability to create for yourself and what are your insights that you had from today. And it's our hope that you move from should, to do, and looking forward to diving in more to the habit mechanic. Again. Thank you, Dr. Finn, and we'll see you next time here on The Insight Interviews- Powered by REWIRE.
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