212 Dave Bookbinder - Return on Individuals

In this episode, Jason and Dave discuss:

• The Importance of Business Valuation
• Unlocking Value Through Intellectual Capital
• The ROI of Investing in People
• Becoming a Go-Giver in Business
• Discovering The True Value of Business Showcases the Power of Giving Value

Key Takeaways:

• Discover the importance of valuing people in business and its impact on financial performance
• Understand the crucial role of seeking expert guidance when valuing a business
• Recognize the significance of intellectual capital, including human capital, as a critical driver of value in modern businesses
• Embrace the concept of being a 'go-giver' in business and life, focusing on providing value and helping others
• Grasp the importance of proper planning, reliable financial statements, and a well-reasoned business plan to navigate potential exits or acquisitions

“It's all about the value that people contribute to an organization. And it's about culture, it's about leadership, it's about engagement, it's about aligning my core values with an organization's core values. ”

 - Dave Bookbinder

Connect with Dave Bookbinder:

• Websites: https://newroi.com/, https://hfco.com/
• LinkedIn
• David's Book
• David's Podcast
  
  

Connect with Steve and Jason:

• LinkedIn: Jason or Steve

• Website: Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking

• Email: grow@rewireinc.com
  
  

Listen to the podcast here:

David Bookbinder- Return on Individuals

Hello, and welcome, everybody to this episode of The Insight Interviews. This is your host, Jason Abell and we’ve got a special guest with us today, David Bookbinder. Dave is the executive director of Haefele Flanagan, he is the host of a very popular podcast that streams, called Behind the Numbers, and this guy has over 10,000 followers on LinkedIn. And if you know anything about LinkedIn, that is a feat that's not easily reached. And so that says something to me, the bestselling author of called the new ROI Return on individuals, and just the little research that I did in the little prerecording chat that we had, here's the most important thing about Dave: he is a good dude. Dave, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. It's great to be with you today. Jason.

Dave, if you know anything about our podcast, you know that the very first question has nothing to do with your story has nothing to do with your credibility, your book, any of that stuff. And we're gonna get into all of that, trust me. First question I have for you as we engage one another today, what are you grateful for?

I'm grateful for where I am right now. I work for a great organization that actually puts their people first. And like you said, if you've done the homework, you mentioned the book, the new ROI Return on Individuals, it's all about the value that people contribute to an organization. And it's about culture. It's about leadership, it's about engagement. It's about aligning my core values with an organization's core values. So, I'm grateful to be here.

Yeah, we're grateful for you to be here. And when I hear that, I automatically - now I do want to dive in. So, we'll get to the book, we'll get to the organization. Tell us, for our listeners who may not know who Dave Bookbinder is, would you just give us a brief history? Like, you know, you don't wake up one day and all of a sudden, you're a guest on a podcast, like, what's a little bit of your story? What should our listeners know about Dave Bookbinder?

Yeah, the big takeaway is, if they look at my LinkedIn profile, it all looks linear. And people think there was a natural progression, and it was all intentional. There was a lot of stuff that was just haphazard, if I'm being honest with you, but doing good things, and showing up and paying it forward leads to really cool opportunities. So, the brief bio here is, if you've watched Shark Tank, and I think most of your audience probably has, they've heard the word valuation in millions. And the Shark Tank show did me a huge favor, because it in my view it made but I do sexy, it brought the word valuation into our living rooms, even to the point where my kids would say, don't you do that dad? So, then I knew that resonates. But yeah, so I've been in the valuation space way longer than I care to admit; I think I can measure it in dog years at this point. But I've helped 1000s of clients in terms of valuing their businesses and intellectual property assets. And that's been really gratifying for me, because, well, valuation Isn't life and death. When you talk about business owners, for many of them, it can be very, very critical and almost life and death in certain circumstances. So, had a lot of great conversations meant a lot of great people and the books or call them a passion project. I never intended to write a book, Jason, in one of the things that we do in my profession is value people and won’t take it down the rabbit hole unless you want to go there. But long story short, I didn't think the methodologies that we use really told the whole story and I started to write something about it, and people started to show up in my life and asked me so what are you going to do and wound up collaborating this about 20 thought leaders across North America and ultimately wound up being a book and fun fact, somebody turned it into a play.

Okay, well, let's just go right down that rabbit hole. I'm not sure I'm not sure I understand how an accounting book and I'm calling an accounting book; I don't know if about valuation became a play. Let's just go right there first, how does something like that happen?

Okay. Well, I'm pleased to say that there were some folks in the area that were inspired by the writings because I've been told by a number of folks, especially in the human resources world, a new kind of a voice for them to champion in a way that maybe they didn't have before, because I'm a finance guy that's talking about things that have historically been left to the human resources people to talk about. And a lot of times, they didn't have the data, the ammunition, the lingo, to really get themselves to credibility at the adult table, as they've told me. So, these folks were inspired by it. And what they wanted to do was bring some real stories to life so that the messages around interactions that are happening in companies around certain situations that it would be felt viscerally by the audience, but also there'd be discussion afterwards to discuss the impact of those conversations, the outcomes on the business, both financially, and I'll call it emotionally, in terms of the impact on the workforce.

Okay, so I understand all that. When I think of a play, I think of like, my wife and I are the kids and us going into a theater and watching a play. Is that the scenario under which the new ROI like, like, can I go see the new ROI somewhere?

You can't now, but if you were interested in having an event, a conference or something like that, it could be reassembled for that purpose. It was a special, I'll call it a one night only networking event and presentation, but there were actors, there was a playwright, there were directors. I went to the table read, I mean, the actors told me just how inspired they were to be a part of this really unique project. And the event happened. It was three vignettes about probably 45 minutes to an hour production. I wrote something about it, if you're curious, it's on my LinkedIn profile, there's an article called Bringing employee engagement to life, the folks@talent.com, the HR people have something out there on their website as well and describes it and there's some photos of the event. Very cool experience.

Well, I know our audience is filled with business owners, and so that may be something and we'll put the links to everything that you just mentioned in the show notes. So, they may want to take a read through of that, but because our audience is business owners, you know, and heck, I'm a business owner, I've got a couple of questions for you. So, when an owner or an ownership group starts to think about valuation, I feel like I have the expert right now in front of me on company valuation. What are some initial things that people should think about? Because as I talk to other business owners, for the most part, Dave, they have no idea what their business is worth or how to even start looking at it. Where would somebody start?

Yeah, that's a great question. And to your point, I forget the exact statistics, but I think I've read recently, something to the effect of like, 80% of business owners don't know the true value of their business. They get a lot of bad advice, and go to cocktail parties, they listen to, you know, their brother-in-law, who sort of does something in investment banking and he said, you know, your business could probably go for eight times EBITDA whatever that is, and, you know, they didn't even know how to spell EBITDA. So, there's a lot of bad information out there. And the key is, be smart, and be prudent about it. There are experts who can really guide you through this and help you to understand what the process entails, what investors are going to look for what buyers are going to look for. And that only talks to one purpose for evaluation, because there's many reasons why companies may need evaluation. For example, if you're a business owner, and you're thinking about transferring your generational wealth to your kids or your grandkids, you want to give shares or the privately held business to them, you need to know what it's worth. There are stock option grants if you're trying to attract executive leadership teams. Stock options need to be valued. Sometimes it's bad news, right? Sometimes there's a business divorce, and two partners may come into a disagreement, and one needs to buy the other one out or kick the other one out, whatever it may be, you need to know what the business is worth. So, there's a lot of different reasons why companies need a valuation. And there's prescribed methodologies, its art, its science, and there's a lot of expertise that needs to be brought to the table. Don't do it alone.

Okay, so that last thing that you said, is definitely one of the things that when the specific question is a where to somebody start, that last part about what you just said is don't do it alone. That is huge. What are some what are some tangible things that a business owner can do? Besides, you know, seeking out an expert like yourself? Not doing it alone. What are some other I guess, resources or things to initially think about where they do find themselves whether it's a good situation or like you said, sometimes a bad situation where they need valuation of their business? What are some initial things that tangible things that they should start to be thinking about?

Again, be careful not to go down the path of thinking you can do it yourself. I've seen too many business owners use the back of the napkin or the back of the envelope method in valuing your businesses. Those are not prescribed valuation methods. So, if you want to take a deep dive to understand what's involved, there's a number of resources. I've got a couple of credentials from the American Society of appraisers, as an example, so their website is appraisers.org, there's a lot of good information you can consume there. Business Valuation center is also another one. Just be careful because there's a lot of stuff on the webs that if you're not careful, you can really get yourself in trouble. Case in point I recently wrote an article is called 10 mistakes that business owners make when valuing their business, and I had to change it to 11 recently, because I found this on the web. Get this. Somebody published an article telling business owners don't waste your time with evaluation. They're expensive, and they're complicated and you don't need it. Here's all you need to do. Take last year's revenue and multiply it by your industries EBITDA multiple. Now, let that sink in for a second. We're going to multiply your revenue by an EBITDA multiple. No. Don’t do that. EBITDA is multiplied by EBITDA multiple revenue is multiplied by revenue multiple. You don't mix these things. So, I'm saying be careful where you go for your information.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, so don't do it alone. Be careful where you go for your information. You just gave a few a few resources.

If nothing else that your audience takes away from valuation, understand this. Valuation is a forward-looking exercise. Yes, there are multiples that are applied to last year's metrics, but really what business owners and what investors what buyers really want to know is, what's the future look like?

Exactly.

So anything that you're able to do to de-risk your business, whether that's recurring revenue, audited financial statements, depth of management team, anything that a potential investor will look to the business and think that's not as risky, as I thought will increase the valuation for your business, for sure.

You're making me think about when I have had conversations with business owners on valuation, I often see they take whatever their best year was in the past, and that's the number that they use to evaluate. Even if that was like, you know, 10 years ago type of thing. Like, no, because you're right, if an investor's buying it, or different owners are or you're selling or whatever, it's somebody's buying the future of your business, not what it has done in the past.

Yeah, and there's a warning flag I gotta raise there, because the flip side to the scenario you just described as the business owner that provides political the hockey stick forecast where they've been chugging along at 5% growth for the last 10 year and now they're thinking of selling and they're gonna present a forecast and now shows them growing at 40% next year.

Sure.

Yeah, that's, that's risk in the forecast. And anybody's going to look at that and say, help me understand that.

Yeah, that’s exactly right. Let's move to the book. The title is, is incredibly interesting. So, the new ROI, but its return on individuals. Now, we talked a lot of math and valuation and places to start so far, but return on individual. You want to talk about intangible. I know in your book, you try to make the intangible you do a good job at it, make the intangible tangible. Talk around that a little bit like the title, why that title and the big idea of the book.

Yeah, so the big idea was, like I said, it was sort of by accident was a rant, honestly. Anybody out there who's ever worked for somebody that manages by spreadsheet, if you will, where they're basically just looking at data and don't really understand the value of their people, you're just looking at performance metrics without getting the whole picture. So, in my world, we value people in the context of an accounting exercise when another business is acquired. And we use a method it's called cost to replace. And basically, the underpinning is you're all the same, one person is just as valuable as another and whatever it's going to cost to recruit and train and learning curve, that that's really the value of the of the individual. So, it doesn't consider anything around the institutional knowledge.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

So, I could tell you all day long, yes, we can do a better job and how we value in these exercises, but I personally don't think anybody gives a rip, because your most valuable asset doesn't even appear on the balance sheet. So, until that happens, how we value people almost doesn't matter. So, my lens was going on this journey of proving that people are really an organization's most valuable asset from the standpoint of what impact that people contribute to the value of a business. So, if you take a business owner, let's go Ebenezer Scrooge, right? We will personify that character as the nastiest business owner in the history of business owners who does not give a hoot about their employees doesn't care about that ping pong table in the break room or pizza on Fridays or whatever, care less. If you tell Ebenezer Scrooge, that if you do the right things around your people, and you treat them with respect and courtesy, give them a mission, things like that value of your business are going to increase. Well, now you got their attention. So that's what the book is about. It's about the value that people contribute to the enterprise and return on individuals, kind of a new spin on the ROI concept of return on investment.

 

Sure. What are one or two examples? You know, I'm sitting here nodding my head, as I do often with our guests. And I listened that I'm like, of course, that makes a ton of sense. And I love your analogy there that Ebenezer Scrooge. What are one or two like tangible examples, or one or two stories that illustrate what you're saying?

I'll make it really easy for you. Because there's a lot of them. I'm going to I'm going to give you that the so called Money shot here, literally.

Do it.

Yeah. So, what if I told you that you can actually invest in businesses that are doing the right things around people? And they've got a history of outperformance?

Yes.

So, people that are already way, way smarter than I, have taken some dives into the research of crunching the numbers around employee surveys of 1000s of companies and 1000s of employees and millions of data points to directly correlate the relationship between not just engagement, but in the subcomponents of engagement in terms of, do people feel appreciated? Do they enjoy going to work? Do they feel that they've got an empathetic leader? Each of those things has been pulled out and tested. And you can literally predict which companies are going to outperform their peers based on the way that they are treating their people. So, there's empirical data that proves this isn't just some guy who's talking about it. But the way the math works, just to bring it all home from a wonky perspective, I told you valuation is a forward-looking exercise, right? So, it's the present value of the future benefits of that company, brought back to today's dollars at its cost of capital or its discount rate. The companies that are doing the right things around people enjoy a lower cost of capital. So lower cost of capital, the higher the valuation, all other things equal.

Yeah, now your Ebenezer Scrooge example makes even more sense because it is kind of the soft skills, kind of potentially the intangibles. But when you say, okay, if you get that right, even halfway right, your business will actually grow, your business will make more revenue, and that's not something that just sounds good. You can literally put your finger on the empirical data that you just referenced. This is true. It's fact.

Yeah. Yeah. And I can even give you a pithy comment about it, that brings it all home and lives on a refrigerator magnet. The value of a business is a function of how well the financial capital and the intellectual capital are managed by the human capital, right? So, you better get the human capital part right.

You went to a place that I wanted to ask you about intellectual capital. That is a topic that I hear you talk about, back of the napkin, are you talking about, well, this idea is worth this or whatever. I know that this is something that you've taken a hard look at. What types of things, when I put on the table, the topic of intellectual capital, what types of things do somebody in your chair? What do you think about?

Yeah, so when I think of intellectual capital, the IP assets that get the most attention, in my world are things like your company brand, right? Your trademark, your customer relationships, your patents, if you have any kind of technology or secret sauce and know-how and things like that, but also the human capital. That's a critical, intangible that doesn't get enough attention.

Yeah, I know that we're having a conversation on exactly that but talk a little bit more about that. Like when those are the things that come up, what should business owners be thinking about when it comes to this topic of human Capital, intellectual property, like you said, trademarks.

So I think it was 1975. If you looked at the s&p 500, the composition of the s&p 500 was probably 90%, tangible assets, you know, the things you can touch and kick and feel. If you look at it now, the composition of the s&p 500 is primarily intellectual capital, the intangible stuff, it's completely flipped. So, focusing on the IP, there's real value there. And I personally think that the human capital is the last bastion for value growth. And we've tried cutting expenses and things like that, but if you can really harness the people, and what they can bring to the table, just think about it this way. When you look at the Gallup surveys every year, and Jason, they always talk about rates of disengagement, right? So, you have 1/3 of the people showing up at work today and they are actually interested in being there. Seven out of 10 people are showing up doing the bare minimum, and maybe you even have a few that are trying to sink the ship, so to speak. That's really bad news. So, imagine if you could find a way to harness that resource and get the discretionary effort to great ideas, the collaboration, the cooperation, right? You'll be an organization where people want to work, your people become your brand evangelists, your customers are going to be treated better. It's just an upward spiral.

Yeah, yeah. So good. Talking about upward spirals, I know enough about you to know that topics like the go giver, topics like, hey, I just want to be out there providing value which you do through your podcasts you do through your book, you're doing it right now with our audience. I know that you are somebody who is not a go getter but a go giver in that way, would you mind just talking about that topic for a little bit?

I'd be delighted to in fact, I'm going to be doing a series of lunch and learns at my company coming up next month to talk about that very topic.

Well, here, you can workshop it right now with us.

Yeah, so we've got a lot of young employees, young professionals who are eager to learn how to network. And I wish I had learned some of this stuff earlier in my career. So hopefully, I can impart some of that to them now and get them on a better path. But growing up in the investment banking space, I saw a lot of matching behavior. So, a lot of taking behavior. But I took an opportunity to lead a firm that really wasn't a recognized brand in my particular market. And I hired a personal branding coach to help me figure out like, how do I go about doing this? And he put me through a process and basically came back and said, look, you got two choices. You can play within the rules of your game, or you can change the game. And so how do we do that? And it was, if you remember the Seinfeld episode, where George Costanza decides he's going to do the opposite, every decision in life he's made was the wrong one, that that's kind of what it is. You stop behaving like everybody else in your space and paying it forward, I was really lucky, I had Bob Berg, who's the author of the Go Giver, or in my program to talk about that was a little bit of a fanboy experience for me, but the purpose of the Go Giver is that you want to pay it forward, right? You don't want to be taking square as a manager, you certainly don't want to be a taker. And if you just go into every conversation, trying to find ways to help add value, usually great things come from it. And for the people who are thinking they are not in sales, and why do we need to know this? And why does that even matter? The answer is everybody's in sales. Because even if you're working at the receptionist desk, you represent your firm, which represents your brand. So, when you go into conversations with people, if you just come at it from the standpoint of not what do I need to sell, I'm not trying to push, just how can I help you? Great things do come from it.

I've had this philosophy, and it's something that I've just observed and it's something that I've thought deeply about this, this idea. And I've just observed that there are people in this world when they go into a situation, whether it's a room or a sales situation, or an interview, or even a sports situation, whatever it is, there are people that enter into a situation looking to say, what can I get out of this particular situation? And there are other people and swimming upstream, by the way, kind of, like you said, doing the opposite of what everybody else is there, enter into a situation going, what is it that I can add? How can I enhance, what can I give, you know, to your scenario, and it just seems to me over the course of time, when you're the latter, and you're entering into situations on what can I give, it's kind of like Zig Ziglar said, and we could have a whole conversation about this but the whole thing about if you help enough people get what they want in life, you'll get what you want. And there's, I've heard many people go, no, that's not fair. Because then your motivation is wrong and whatever. Again, we could have a lot of talk around that. But if you go into situations, looking to see how you can enhance it, looking to see what you can give, it just seems like you'll be taken care of, whether that means sales, whether that means friendships, whether that means something down the line that you're not even thinking of today might happen here. It's just how I've observed things.

                                                                                         
"You build a reputation, and your reputation is your personal brand. And if you're known as somebody who's the kind of person who pays it forward, who shows up to give and not to take, great things do come. The opportunities to speak, to write, to work with clients and so forth. It does happen. 100%."

I know that this is more of a business show than anything else, but this conversation is even making me think of- I'm a dad of two adult children. And I remember our daughter came home for Christmas one time from like her college years and there was a different girl that came home, and she was helping with things and doing the dishes and offering to do things for people. And I was like, oh, she became one of those giver people, like that was a that was something that was part of the maturity process. That was something that happened. And as a dad, it made me feel super proud. And I just I see that with people as I observe. And to your point, Dave, boy, it seems like that's still against the grain. It seems like those people are swimming upstream. But it also seems like those are the people that win in life and business.

Berg has a great quote that came out of the Go Giver and it's that you know, all things being equal, people will refer business to and do business with people that they know, like and trust. And that's the real emphasis. You've got to build the know like, and trust and know and like you can build relatively quickly. Trust takes time. Being consistent showing up and doing what you say you're going to do. Even just in terms of public speaking during an interview like this or peaking to your coworkers at a staff meeting or something like that. There's a lot of folks who have a fear of public speaking. In fact, somebody who came on my show once told me that it was so bad that most people are so afraid of public speaking that they would rather be in the casket than doing the eulogy at a funeral.

I've heard this.

Right? So, the way that I was told to overcome that fear of public speaking is don't show up with the mindset of what am I going to get out of this? Come into it purely with what can I give? What can I contribute here? How can I benefit this audience? What can I share? And it changes the whole vibe for you and for the audience.

Yep. Yep. Big time. I went through the same matriculation in my speaking career where I used to get really nervous where it was like, I hope I do a good job, I hope I don't forget my things I hope I perform in whatever way was important to me at the time, where somebody helped me the way that you just did for in this discussion where it was like, forget you,. Them. They're the ones that are important. And if your focus is on them, then your thing will take care of itself. And you know, it's a little easier said than done. You got to get your reps in whatever. But boy, that has been something that's helped me. If I'm not focused on myself, but I'm focused on the value that that I'm providing to them, then I don’t know-things just tend to work out a little bit better.

Yeah, that's a mindset shift. And for the audience, if they're not familiar with the Go Giver, that's the one with the red cover. It’s a great story. But when my coach had me read it, my first thought was, this is really cute, but does it work? And then I read the second one, the green cover, go givers sell more, and that sort of became a playbook. So, I would highly recommend that if your audience is considering it, definitely check out both. But if you're going to do one, take a look at the green one.

Yeah, very good. And we'll we'll put those in the show notes as well. Dave, as we start to wind down here, a couple of last questions. One is, is there anything on this topic of valuation or things that I haven't asked you about that you would like our audience to know?

Yeah, it's never too soon to be prepared. I was at a conference not too long ago, and one of the panelists said something that really resonated with me, and he said that you may not be for sale today, but you can always be bought. And the point of that is that you need to run your business as if, right? So things happen, people get sick, people die, people get into arguments with their partners. unexpected things happen, sometimes great things happen. somebody knocks on the door and says, hey, I'm gonna give you $100 million for your company. You need to be prepared in those situations. So run your business like a business. And the more things you can do so that you are de-risk from day one, you do the planning, get a good set of financial statements. If somebody needs to see it, they can rely on the numbers.

                                                                                                     
"If you're doing a business plan, which you absolutely should, it should be a living document."

Yep.

Run your forecast thoughtfully with underpinning assumptions that are well reasoned based, in fact, not on gut feelings, and update it periodically so that you've got something that that's kind of your guidepost.

And those things when you talk about death and health and divorces or the opportunistic type of thing, those aren't like, if they happen, they just happen. This is the world that we live in. Life happens. And so yeah, never too soon to be prepared. Thank you for that.

Yeah, one more for them. When people think about an exit, they think about the transaction. And I get a lot of calls from business owners who say, thinking of selling my business, I need evaluation. After asking him a series of questions a lot of times in that circumstance, they really don't need me. Yes, I could give them a great valuation, it's going to be well supported and documented, but if they're in that spot where it's the oh shit moment where they have to sell for whatever that reason is, hire an investment banker hire a business broker, whatever the size of your company is, that’s appropriate for you, you usually get the valuation for free in the process but more importantly, it’s where the rubber is going to meet the road when they put the for sale sign on the front lawn so to speak.

Right, yeah.

that's what that's where they are it's no longer what's the theoretical because if they are if they're going to do planning because a true exit takes planning and time. And I can add a lot of value if we're going to do this right over the course of a couple of years giving them the right guidance, so they get to that spot where they can jump strategically. But in that uh oh moment, yeah. It's too late to think about the conceptual. You’re there.

Yep, yep, yep. Yeah, really good, really good. Any particular project or thing that you're passionate about right now that I haven't asked you about that you want to mention?

Yeah, you know, in the spirit of the Go Giver. So, I was thinking about this, as I mentioned, I'm gonna be doing this talk, and it might end up in a couple of weeks. But when I was thinking about examples, if somebody asked me that, one really just stuck out as a great business example, in getting giving more value than you receive in payment, and this was awhile back ago, in my career where a company that I wanted to work with, already had a valuation provider, and they had a great relationship with them. There was no chance that I thought I was gonna get to work with them, but they reached out one day because their existing provider couldn't help them on a particular thing. And they were kind of in a pinch. And they asked if I could help, and sure, and it really wasn't a big deal. And we helped them and gave them what they needed. They insisted on paying something. And despite the fact that I really didn't want to take any payment, they were adamant, so wrote them engagement letter for some de minimis amount, which got all kinds of questions back at the home office. What are you writing engagement letter in that small amount for? Anyway, this, this client ultimately became our largest recurring revenue customer because of that goodwill that we did there for them.

And that wasn't even the purpose that you did that, but it makes an example of your motivation wasn't like, Well, maybe if I do this, then this will happen. You just did it because that's what you do, because of your philosophy. And then that happened. Right?

What a great surprise, but that that's just an example of it. But like you said, the key there was that wasn’t the intention. I wasn't trying to wedge myself into the cracks. The intention was these are some folks that really need some help at the moment. And you know, there are friends of our firm and yet we're gonna do we can help them do the right thing.

Dave, so good. So good. I have a feeling people in my audience are going to want to reach out and find you connect with you in some way. What's the easiest and best way for that to happen?

There's a number of ways that they can find me. First of all, you mentioned LinkedIn. I'm Dave Bookbinder, so you can find me there. If they're curious about the books, they can check out NewRoi.com or they can certainly just jump to Amazon; both books are out there. If they're interested in learning more about valuation services, they can find me at a HFCO.com. And behind the numbers, which we didn't really get a chance to talk about is my podcast. It's a popular program right now. I'm really lucky and fortunate for that if they're interested that show streams wherever you get your pods.

And this guy is humble everybody. He told me before we hit record that his show is so popular, that he's got guests that are booked a year out. So, if you want to be a guest on the show, it's going to have to be in 2025. It won't be this year. So very interesting. Congratulations on all the success. Thank you for just putting an exclamation mark on the whole idea of giving without expectation of return and what happens there. Thank you for just the tangibility that you put on valuation. Thanks for writing the book that you wrote. I know you have an accounting background, but the book that you wrote, really takes a lot of intangible ideas, and really as business owners thinking about it in a different way. Thanks for being who you are, Dave. I appreciate you being on.

I appreciate that. Thanks so much. This was a lot of fun.

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