Dana is a seasoned mortgage professional with nearly 30 years of mortgage lending experience, including executive management in sales, marketing, and operations for the last 15 years. Her expertise includes the development of high-performing sales teams, creating sales growth and strategy, perfecting and implementing solutions to streamline new loan production, as well as managing large-scale mortgage operation centers. She has a deep background in mortgage compliance, including CFPB mock audit efforts, and has worked in all channels of the mortgage business, with the last few years focused on the Private Lending/Business Purpose Entity lending space.
Her proven track record is unique in that it covers operations, credit/risk, sales, and marketing. She is an avid speaker/presenter at numerous mortgage industry events and believes in deep advocacy for education in the private lending space. Dana is a published author, with some of her most recent articles appearing in Mortgage Women Magazine and Deal Maker Magazine. Dana is actively involved with Habitat for Humanity in her local area as a financial counselor, helping families achieve their dream of homeownership. She lives in the East Texas area on a small ranch with her husband Sean, their two Labradors, and numerous other ranch animals.
“You have to take your ego out of things. There is no ego when your only desire is to help someone. If you’re doing something for your neighbor, you’re doing it because you’re a good neighbor… because it’s the right and good thing to do.” - Dana Georgiou
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I have an amazing guest. I am aware that I have amazing guests, but I keep encountering these remarkable people. As the time comes to have them on the show, I notice about myself that I get excited about what this could be and maybe that's only a vocational hazard because I'm in the insight business. I have pretty high hopes that we're going to have some pretty cool insights in this episode. Dana Georgiou, welcome to the show.
Steve, thank you for having me.
I am grateful to have you on the show. We usually kick these things off in ways where we're trying to establish some pretty cool neurochemistry. In the attempt to establish neurochemistry, I'd like to hear about the first person that comes to your mind who made a lasting impact on you. Who were they and what was the lasting impact, if you wouldn't mind?
That’s an interesting one because immediately, there were two sides of my brain that went business and personal. From a business perspective, Robin Alcock is an extraordinary woman in Charlotte, North Carolina. I had an unbelievable opportunity to work with and for Robin. She became a mentor during the time that I was working for her and then long afterward, and still is to that matter. I haven’t worked for Robin now in more than fifteen years. She has been a person that I have continued to go to year after year and most of it is professional development.
Robin helped to change me as a leader and the way that I thought about leadership. She did that by the way she led. We tell our kids all the time, “Be around people that you want to emulate,” and she certainly was that for me. From a personal perspective, and this is probably a little cliché, it has been my dad. He was someone that never finished high school. He got his GED and served in the Navy, but has created business after business.
The work ethic that I watched him deliver to any of the businesses that he built and the opportunity to work with him, a lot of what I have taken in certainly into the early career that has served me so well, is emulating that type of work ethic. It's given me so many opportunities and he was hard but firm and fair. He is the one that taught me that if you aren't leading and appreciating the people that work for you, they will never do the same for your customers. Being able to pull those full circle has been impactful for me. Those are the first two people that jumped out for me.
This is why in the insight interviews, Dana, I have these questions that I want to get to and ask you about your career and some of the things you do because it's super unique in what you bring to the table. It is so awesome and I can't wait to do that but now, I want to know more about your dad and Robin. They both sound super intriguing and that's amazing. With regard to Robin, you mentioned leadership and how she was. What were the characters or attributes in her that caused you to see her as a mentor and want to emulate her?
First of all, both of them would probably be exceptionally dismayed that I have put both of them out there because of their humbleness and that they discount not only that humbleness but what they do bring to other people. That is a perfect lead into one of the things that Robin is. She was a very humble servant-like leader. Her approach was always about what she could do for you. What were you missing? Not to say that she didn't only play to anyone's strengths. If you only play to anyone's strengths, they're never going to develop.
She was very good about helping and understanding where your weaknesses were and were that weakness important enough in the role that you were playing or where you wanted to get to that you needed to do something about it. Otherwise, be smart enough to bring others in to move that over to them so you continue to be able to do your job well or whatever project or things that you were working on and serve everybody.
Those are the things that I always think about and she was as good about the data. Data is important. You can stand on it. It’s published information. It's easy to dissect but she was as good about the data as she was about the human component of it. She helped me to understand that it’s where the balance comes in when you're working with anyone and how you have to adapt your style to someone else and not always expect or not ever expect as a leader that someone that's working with or for you should adapt to you.
I have taken that through every role that I've had since working with Robin and it's allowed me not only to be a better human in how I interact in my personal relationships as well, but it has translated into people who have worked for me not once, but now multiple times. They have joined me in organizations that I have moved to. That's Robin in a nutshell.
What I was hearing in that is something that has been referred to, and I could be wrong about this, but I believe it was Jack Welsh, the great CEO from GE that referred to that as liquid leadership. People are vessels and we pour into those vessels. Some people are plates and other people are cups. We have to pour differently into different people and it sounds like Robin did a great job.
I'm further intrigued by this. One of my mentors, Daniel Siegel, calls this bilateral integration. When you get into the right side of the brain and the left side, we know one is analytical and the other is holistic. When people like Robin are balanced like that, he would call it integrated. When people are reading that, you might, as a reader, go, “I wonder where I need to integrate either the right side or left side because we all have the tendency to be either more right dominant or left dominant.” Integrating those two things, when you say Robin was somebody that knew the people side well and did liquid leadership, but also the data that's the left side. That's the right side and left side right there. That's integrated.
Dana, I would love to hear from you. I can sit here and read your bio. I don't particularly like to do that. I hate to do this to you. I know we don't have a lot of time here, but your career was super fascinating to me and some of the tracks, turns and angles that it took. I would love it to come from you. If you could take a couple of minutes and synthesize the paths that you've been on in your career for our readers, it would be great.
It’s funny because when I do hear myself talk about it, sometimes it even surprises me. Besides the businesses that I worked for my dad at a very young age, the mortgage industry has been my home. People ask me all the time why I have stayed in it through the financial crisis and all of the other ups and downs because there certainly has been more than the one that we're going through in the career but it’s the opportunity that I get to learn something new every day.
Being in the mortgage business is an opportunity to learn something new every day.
Over the course of those several years, it's almost equally split at this point in my life between sales and sales management, leadership, and marketing. The complete another side of the house, which is more operational or credit, at risks and capital markets, that side of it. It’s the sales being the right brain people approach and these whole credit compliance capital markets are all about data analytics.
When you're talking about that from working with people, that's what my career has been. It’s this opportunity to work on both sides of this. It's created a little bit of unicorn-ish that I am because most of the time, at this point in someone's career, they have spent a lifetime in sales or they've spent their career in credit or delivering in from an operational perspective. Because of people like Robin who gave me an opportunity to cross every possible channel and business line to learn and grow, I've created this balance.
I get accused a lot by my sales team because my current role is Senior Vice President of Lender Partnerships at AlphaFlow, a very unique company with an ecosystem that runs the gamut of private lending, which is in the investment property space. Not only do we have credit facilities that we supply to lender partners, but we also buy their whole loans and move them into a servicing solution.
It's a unique atmosphere, but I run sales here at AlphaFlow. In the latter part of the last few years, I moved more towards that people side and I don't know if it's because I feel this compelling need to try to help bring the new leadership, education, and all of those things that I feel so passionately about. Not only about the mortgage industry and the private lending industry as a whole, but there's been something candidly missing in some of the younger people moving into industries. They want to make a big jump over into management, but there's no one there that has provided them with the help to be able to do that, as I received from Robin and others.
Reconnect Humanity: There's been something candidly missing in some of the younger people moving into industries who want to make a big jump over into management. But there's no one there that has provided them with the help to be able to do that.
I feel passionate about that and in sales, I get the opportunity to do that, not only with my own team but because I work so cross-functionally with so many other teams, not only in AlphaFlow but the lenders that we're working with and the loan officers that they have that are working for those lenders or across the industry as a whole being on two different panels from an education space.
It is a little bit of a unique career. I've been unbelievably blessed by the spades my family has as well. I can't imagine at this point doing something different, even though when I first was getting out of school, I thought humbly I was going to be a History Professor, which seems weird now, but that's the last few decades of my life. It's run from conventional to government and now into this investment purpose or business purpose private lending type of industry.
This business has changed me in so many ways and allowed such an evolution of not only me personally but the knowledge that I've taken from each different sector of the business. I get to stand on that, build on it, and then pass all of that on because, while they are different, there are so many things that are the same. They can be things that you learn and take into some place new. While you'll never do it the same, or I hope I never do it the same, I never want to repeat history. I want to keep making history. That's where my career has been.
Again, I hear that integration. AlphaFlow certainly sounds like this ecosystem that you're in there. It certainly has elements of data and how you do all that. There's this left side and then working with people still. I have questions about that and about you taking the word unicorn and making it into an adjective, which is super cool.
I got stuck on as you were saying that and I want to say it back to make sure I got it right. New people are coming into this industry, and we could just say mortgage and lending on a larger scale if that's okay because there are certain nuances and channels even within the industry. Generally speaking, I heard you say in a very positive way, which I love, that there might be some opportunities to help others have better leadership skills. Again, I heard you say, “There are some people coming into this, but there might not be as many people to catch them and intentionally help them with leadership.”
Intentional is the exact right word.
I don't dare to think that we're going to do that now, and I certainly don't ever mean to put you on the spot. Let's say you and I completely shifted this call and made this into a, “We're going to write a little bit of a curriculum about leadership in lending for new people coming in.” What's interesting about that, Dana, is it could be new people coming in, but you and I both know that if we could do that, the old people that are already in could learn a ton as well. Let's be honest.
What would your curriculum be? I want to keep this moving in a state where we're being positive and being able to help, but I do wonder if it's like, “What's missing that you would love to see be added?” Maybe not were, but maybe it is, “What would your curriculum be? If you were going to put a course together for the industry and teach leadership, what would elements of that course be that you would love to see to help people grow in their ability and their leadership abilities in this industry? What would be a part of that?”
If you are the leader or you're representing yourself as a leader, the first thing that I encourage any of my managers is that you have to take your ego out of things. There is no ego when your only desire is to help someone. If you were thinking about doing something for your neighbor, you do it because you're a good neighbor and you're doing it just for this sheer pleasure that you have in your heart or your mind or whatever drives you from a spiritual perspective because it's the right and good thing to do.
If you are the leader, the first thing that you have to do is take your ego out of things. There is no ego when your only desire is to help someone.
In business, sometimes people disconnect that humanity piece of it. It's something that I want to make sure is heard. It is okay and good to be a human manager, to have compassion, and to understand what is happening in someone's personal life that could be affecting them in a business way. Also, asking even a simple question of, “How is your day?” Let's not talk about business, the tasks, the initiatives, or the things that we have to do, but how are you?
If we can touch people in a human way, it connects us as a leader to be more impactful. I also would encourage someone to say this at the end of any type of obsession, whether that's a one-on-one or you're working with a customer. You're working even cross-departmentally with someone that may not even report to you. “Is there anything that I can do?“ and mean it.
If someone gives you something that they can, you take action on it, but is there anything that I can do to either make your job better or bring you a resource that you're lacking? I have not seen, in my own personal experience, a lot of leaders do that. The ones that do and the difference that you see in the teams that are connected with them are astounding.
You listed out two things as I understand, taking your ego out of things and asking the question behind the question of, “How are you and is there something I can do to make your job better?” Maybe this one's connected to the first one. Dana, for the people reading this, that's pretty intuitive, and yet you ended with, “You don't see a lot of leaders do this.” This is going to be an odd question for you, but if it's so intuitive, these things are great. What's your opinion about why we don't see people do this more often?
I have a new saying that I say often. Common sense is not so common anymore. I agree with you. It is an intuitive thing so it's almost like it should be common knowledge, but for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to come up. Part of me believes that it's business disconnecting the heart. We should always have this approach in business that it is an intentional, mindful, and intellectual approach but this is my personal opinion. My body doesn't work that way. My heart is involved in the mind and I'll be candid with you. There have been oftentimes even in my business career that my heart has made the decision versus my head making the decision and most of the time, it's right.
Common sense is not so common anymore.
It hasn't been always, and that's okay. That's been a learning opportunities. That's been the struggle, especially as you had mentioned, it's not just always about new people coming in but people that are already in established leadership positions. Take a step back for a second and if you're discounting your ego and you have no personal play in it, the heart comes to the top of it. If you're leading with that, then that's always going to serve you well. Again, it’s an opinion because that's how I think that my later career has blossomed in the way that it has.
There's a piece of me that wants to go, “You guys go have a great day.” Just listen to that.
Maybe it is a little corny or maybe it's a little warm and fuzzy approach but let's look at the past couple of years and the state that our world has been and these bubbles of disconnect. You and I are doing this interview via Zoom as opposed to sitting in some great studio and I get to look at you and you get to look at me. You can almost physically see an energy shift. It's hard to do that in a remote atmosphere. It's been incrementally harder for leaders to pull that heart and passion into their leadership styles in the world in which we've been operating.
It's harder and when something's harder, sometimes you go, “It's too hard.” That's what I hope is someone stops and thinks and goes, “Have I thought this is too hard so I've pushed it aside?” Now, bring it into, “I am working in this way. What do I need to change in my approach or because I have to use Zoom? I don't get to see my people every day.”
I've worked remotely almost for the past several years so it wasn't a shift at all for me to be leading people or working people in this environment. However, I recognize that it's been a struggle for a lot of people that had a management style that's been used to put their arms around people in a one-on-one type of in-the-same-room approach. It's been a struggle.
I do realize that our little show for our readers and I have said this a few times over the couple of years that we've been doing this. I wonder if it's only for me. You gave me an insight that, again, as rude as it sounds, I want to hang up, sit in silence, and listen to that for a second. The insight I got was about that energy. We can be on this show, not see each other, Dana, and create energy. However, it takes energy to do that.
What the insight that I have is if I think, “This is what people started talking about, Zoom fatigue, and this and that. Think about even communicating through text and email, and social media and the ways that we do that. That heart connection and that energy exchange can happen. Maybe not as well, let's be honest. If we are face to face, it can happen well but if we're to utilize this technology, we have to acquiesce to the idea that it takes energy and maybe people think, “I don't have the energy to do that.”
It takes energy, effort, and mindful thoughtfulness about it. If I'm going into at the end of the day and my team and my company run the coasts, I start early for the East Coast and end late for the West Coast. Trying to get to the end of the day in the way that I started my day, I have to be mindful of it. Am I giving something in the morning that I'm depriving someone off in the afternoon because I've gone through my whole day?
It's a mindful approach. I have to make a decision that I want an equal exchange of energy. If I'm not giving out what I hoped to be getting back, then I have nobody to blame myself. You got to give what you want to get and I have high expectations. My team and the teams that have worked for me will tell you that I have very high expectations of them, but I hope that they always feel that they can count on me and that they're always getting the highest and best from me so they can deliver that way.
Reconnect Humanity: Make a decision that you want an equal exchange of energy. If you’re not giving out what you hoped to be getting back, then you have nobody to blame it yourself. You have to give what you want to get.
As you're saying this, I'm taking notes feverishly. I'm building these stairsteps. Tell me what you think about this. One of the things that you've helped me uncover is that even your top two things, I bet you have ten if I asked you about how we're going to grow leadership, etc. Taking your ego out of it and asking the question, “Is there anything I can do to make your job better?” We started getting into the energy exchange of helping people and so on.
Each of those things, including taking your ego out of it, requires energy. Before we got on this show, we had this fun little exchange and you were asking how it was and it's morning here. We were talking about coffee and different things. What if part of the curriculum that you're helping build here is, first of all, “Let's help people have energy,” because if they don't have energy, giving them ideas and tips and showing them the way, but those ways require energy and people don't have it, then our work is simply pointing stuff out that people will never do because they can't.
They might do it, but they won't do it well, which then won't create the result that they hope for or that you hope for or that your company needs, whether it's delivering a solution, a product or whatever that is. The cascade effect that happens is tremendous, not only from a personal perspective but possibly from a revenue perspective in your company. If you're a salesperson and you're driven off of commission, guess what's never going to happen? That commission.
Now, you're failing in a position and it was such a simple thing to change the energy of how you can approach something or anything. Instead of the, “I have to approach,” it's, “I get to. I have to take out the garbage. I get to take out the garbage because all that garbage fed my family this week.” It's that approach.
You say just that and again, this is why I want this show to last for two hours so that I can absorb your energy. I can hear it in you that you do that intuitively. I believe people can do this, but when you say, “Take your ego out of it.” By the way, I don't want to forget the difference between get to and got to like, “I got to do this.” That's one thing I want to ask our readers. When you're saying, “I got to have this meeting and I got to do that,” if you can hear that like you were talking about awareness and mindfulness. If we could be mindful of that, guess what mindfulness requires?
Energy. It’s a perfect circle, isn’t it?
Yes, but it's also a very difficult circle because I was going to go back to take your ego out of things. We could do an episode on that. What does that mean? Great, sounds wonderful and we could be servant leaders and whatever. I was sitting there going, “How do I do that?” Conceptually, I think I get what that means although it could be esoteric. Maybe people don't get what that means and then you defined it. In order to ask someone, “Dana, how are you? How's it going there in Texas? Really, how are you?” You probably have to take your ego out of it to energize yourself with a genuineness to care about that question.
That authenticity is important.
However, it takes energy.
It does and lots of it.
Again, I feel like I want to be in this class for years because you're such a great teacher. You've got this highlight that we're going to learn to take our ego out of it. The practicality of that brings that to practice. Help us take our ego out of it. How do you teach people that? How do you coach people that?
It depends on the role that they're in. If I were being asked that question by someone else that was from a leadership perspective, I might say to them, “When you're going into a meeting with anyone, whether that's someone that works for you or a customer, what do you believe your ‘title’ is?” Am I going into this as the SVP of Lender Partnerships, which is my official title or am I going into this as a partner? I'm a partner to a lender. I'm as committed to their business and their business growth as me getting something out of it. If I take the approach of pulling my ego out of always having to deliver something from a titled perspective, it becomes a human.
It’s Dana Georgiou and Steve Scanlon. It's not Dana Georgiou, SVP or Steve Scanlon, Podcast Extraordinaire. None of those things come into play. If you're mindful, and again, it does matter who you're talking to because that won't always be the same approach. First of all, who do I need to be to serve this person in the best way? If you are always deciding what your ego is going in, it's like, “It doesn't have anything to do with ego.”
It has to do with what's the best version of me to bring the best version of this meeting or opportunity to fruition. That is an important thing especially for leaders and younger leaders because a lot of people that are first moving into that first manager role or director role are like, “Whoa. I'm a director.” Maybe there's an assertion that they feel almost has to come from power. If nothing else comes out of this and there's a newer leader in this space that feels like there has to have that approach, I want them to hear me say, it isn't.
You will serve yourself and your team. You will grow so much faster and your team will grow so much faster. I don't mean from just the number of people, but the people who want to work with you. If you never, ever say, “I'm the director and this is the way that we're going to do it.” That's ego. Servant leadership certainly is a term I've said through the years, but it is past being a servant leader. It's being a human leader.
The kinds of questions that are firing through my mind as you say are so many. If you can believe it, we got to go. We're done. We could go on and on and on, but I'm stepping back myself and I got to be honest with you, Dana. Rare are the times when I'm going to stop and go reflect on this because there are ways that I know I need to do that better. I envision myself in a John Lennon song of Imagine. Imagine a world where it wasn't just leaders saying, “I'm the CEO. I'm the SVP,” but it was everybody.
It wasn't just the people with titles because everybody has a title. What if everybody did this? I know that sounds unicorn-ish or utopia-ish. I am super grateful for these insights, Dana, and I am certainly almost sorry that we have to go, but we do. If it's okay, sooner rather than later, I'd love to have you back and we can carry this forward. I'm super grateful. I know a lot of people are going to grow. There are so many great questions here so I want to thank you for your time/I know there's so much more I can hear from you and I'm just grateful that you were able to come on. Thank you.
I appreciate that very much and I love the opportunity to spend even a little bit of time with you. It's a practice like yoga, meditation, or anything. It's a practice for me every day. While you and I are talking about it, you can hear how passionate I am about it. I still have to practice it every day. I have to be mindful of separating ego or otherwise. Nobody is going to be perfect at this for sure and I'd love to be back so invite me anytime.
I'm scouring through my notes. I have this tendency to make little check marks and stars by things that I want to end with and say insights around. I have too many. It would take too much time. Take your ego out of it and put your heart in, not just your mind and your heart. I liked how you come from both angles of heart and head. It's not one or the other. It's both and I think that's cool. Have no role. Check yourself at the door. Are we saying that? Are we relying on our role and our title?
Also, asking some of the most foundational questions and taking the time to mean them like, “How are you and how's your day?” As simple as it sounds, that can be transformational. I've got so many more but readers, we hope you had some great insights. As we always say, it doesn't matter what Dana's insights were or mine is. It matters what yours are. Dana, thank you so much again and I look forward to having you again as a guest.
Thank you, Steve. I appreciate you.
You all have a great day and we'll see you next time here on the show.