208 Chrissy Brown - There's Nothing Without Trust

In this episode, Jason and Chrissy discuss:

• Empathy and Authenticity in Leadership
• Building Trust and Connection
• Taking Action on Employee Feedback
• Relationships, Productivity & Overcoming the "Grind" Mentality
• Human-Centered Leadership & Investing in People

Key Takeaways:

• Mastering empathy for leadership success leads to stronger team connections and improved collaboration
• Building trust in remote work teams creates a cohesive and productive virtual work environment
• Effective stress management strategies enhance well-being and productivity in the workplace
• Navigating the career development jungle gym leads to personal growth and professional fulfillment
• Enhancing team productivity with relationships fosters a positive and supportive work culture

Relationships equal efficiency. Bottom line.
- Chrissy Brown

Connect with Chrissy Brown:

• Website
• LinkedIn

Connect with Steve and Jason:

• LinkedIn: Jason or Steve

• Website: Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking

• Email: grow@rewireinc.com
  
  

Listen to the podcast here:

Chrissy Brown- There's Nothing Without Trust    

Hello and welcome, everybody, to this episode of The Insight Interviews. This is your host, Jason Abell, and I've got a returning guest. Yes, a returning guest. We don't have many of those. We only ask people to come back if, one, I don't know, we like them, and then two, if their episode was downloaded a lot. And your episode in December of 2022, Chrissy, was one of our more downloaded episodes. So, you and I are in person. We're at an event together and we decided to do this thing. So, Chrissy Brown, COO, welcome back to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah. We're excited to have this conversation. As you and I engage one another today, what is it that strikes you that you're particularly grateful for?

I mean, obviously, my family. Yeah. My son.

Yep.      

Health. Yeah. All of the things.  
      

All the things. Yeah. People and health. For sure, for sure.   Here we are at this event away from our families. But it is the thing that, like, uh, the thing that we think about is that soon as we're at breaks, I'm texting people that are meaningful to me and, you know, you’re doing the same type of thing. So, the last time that you were on the show, you and our guest host, Craig Ungaro, you guys had a wide-ranging conversation.

We did.

You talked about jungle gyms. Do you remember that?  
      

I do, I do.

Give me your version of that today. Like, this is a year and a half later. Like, I found that a very interesting analogy of, like, not a straight line from here to there or I think you said something. Sometimes your career's life is not a ladder, it’s a jungle gym.

Like, I don't know, and I stole that from, obviously, somebody else speak about that today. Yeah, it's just, you know, it's a concept of when your career takes turns to the left or to the right, and sometimes below, right? Especially for folks coming into the industry or coming into any kind of new industry, you know, sometimes those. Those shifts happen. And, you know, I think that there's this desire to climb up the ladder. But the concept is, is to look at it as a jungle gym and not a ladder, because every move to the left or the right below up gives you a wider view of what you need to know to be on the top, right? And so, I really encourage people to not get discouraged when those moves happen, or when you feel like I'm taking a step in opposite direction or this is completely outside my wheelhouse, everything is getting you a better picture of the organization or your industry. And it's just as an interesting concept when I read that, to look at it as a jungle gym.

This idea of looking at something from a different viewpoint, you know, at the top, because you're an executive, you're at the top. You can only see certain things. But this piece about the jungle gym being at different vantage points, I'm thinking that you get to see more of the organization from when you're on that jungle gym, from different vantage points, looking through different lenses. Like, you find things out that you wouldn't know otherwise, right?

100%. And more empathy and understanding for the different areas that you may not have enough understanding or knowledge about what they do to really fully respect it, you know? Yeah, I was one of those ones that was voluntold, where I was going to be participating as far as my role, you know, whether it was construction or, you know? And during those times, I was like, can I just do this? You know? In retrospect, I'm so grateful for those times.

Because you had the different viewpoints, and now, as the leader at the top, because you had those different viewpoints. Like you said, you mentioned the word empathy. That's a buzzword right now, but for you, Chrissy, like, what does that mean to you?     
   

It means, well, and this is probably not the actual definition, so.

No, no, I don't. I don't care what Webster says. I want to know what Chrissy says.

Yeah. So, empathy for me is just to have an understanding and being able to give grace, and understand that you're not in that position. So, you know, I guess in the context, I guess this is a very loaded question here.

Yeah, yeah.

In the context that we're talking about here, you know, it's just to be able to give grace. Like, I don't fully understand everything, but I also understand enough, you know, to know that it's harder than it looks or things are, you know, more difficult.

Yeah, yeah. The idea of empathy and grace, when I hear those, I mean, here we are just two, three minutes into the conversation and like, we're diving in the deep end of the pool here, Chrissy. Like, talking about things like empathy, grace, I think pre-recording, you know, you mentioned the word trust. I'm definitely sensing from you that from a leadership standpoint, and I know you've got the mad skill set behind you. Like, all the hard skills. Like, you don't become a COO without, like, knowing your stuff, right? So, we know that that's there. But what I'm hearing is a lot of soft skill types of things. And so, I don't know, throwing out the word empathy, trust, authenticity, like, I don't know. Could you speak to that a little bit more?

Yeah, I mean, people are my passion. When I was younger, I wanted to be a missionary. So here we are on mortgages. A little bit of a turn. No, but, you know, I kind of struggled with the fact, like, okay, well, I'm not changing the world. And then I really thought into, like, in leadership, you do have a lot of ability in those positions to make a massive impact on people's lives if you care about people.

Yeah.        

                                                                                                       
"And so, my passion is people. And, you know, I struggle with how authentic I can be because it's not the corporate America executive look. But, you know, again, staying true to myself and, and really, truly, genuinely wanting to see people grow. I want to have an impact as much as I can."


Yeah, yeah. Okay. So much there. Okay, first of all, you want it to be, what'd you say? Community service or missionary? So, let's just take a quick left turn. You know, not for the entire podcast, but walk me through that time in your life of, hey, I want to do this, go into service, and then you became a mortgage banker. Like, help me there. How did that happen?

You can't see the line?

I don't know.

Yeah, no, I, you know, like everyone, I think it's becoming, you know, it's more talked about these days as far as people actually going into mortgages. But back in the day, no one ever chose mortgages, right? Like, how do we fall into this, right? So, yeah, I was trying. I moved to Canada and did some stuff, and I've been to Africa and Haiti and Mozambique, and I was trying to figure out where my next move was going to be, right? I was younger. You know, there may be a boy involved.

Oh, boy.    

But, yeah, where was my, like, what path do I want to go on next? And as I was doing that, I, I was like, I'm going to take a temp job because I don't want to permanently do anything right now because I want to figure out, like, am I moving to Africa? And then, and landed on a mortgage company as a receptionist, and they taught me how to process. They taught me how to close.

I wish people could see your body language right now. You know, I was a receptionist, and here, here I am. Now I'm, you know, COO of the joint. Okay, so, I get, gosh, I could ask so many things about your being overseas and all that, but I'll go to starting off as a receptionist and now the chief operating officer. Take me through that path for just a minute or two.

I mean, it was long.

Not every receptionist becomes an executive.        

Yeah. I love learning. And so, I think, again, back to the jungle gym. I was put into a lot of different positions and different departments, and I just tried to embrace them. I mean, I spent two years copying files back and forth, back and forth. You know, I just really wanted to learn as much as I could. So, while I was copying the files, I read all the documents, right? And, you know, I say this to our team all the time, you know, take the opportunities to learn whenever somebody's teaching.

Yep.        

Right? Or, or you can learn yourself.

Yep, yep.

So, I take the books home and I read, because they didn't have Internet back then.      

Yep, yep. I remember, yeah.

So, take the books home, the guidelines, read them, and just kind of progressed through my underwriter, and then from underwriter to Ops manager.

Well, big, big time onward. So, yeah, there's already, I can tell something very unique about you, because, again, not every receptionist becomes an executive of the company. Not everybody takes it upon themselves to read the documents that they're charged with copying. So, I'm definitely hearing from you that, one, you're a passionate learner, two, said your passion is people; those things combined, I think, then do make, you know, somebody that is executive material. So, there's a little bit about that path, it sounds like, right? Like, without those two things, that doesn't happen.

You have to love people, because leadership is not, for the faint of heart, so hard. I've cried more tears, you know, as a leader than I have, you know, as an underwriter or processor. But, yeah, you have to love people. That has to be your why.

Yeah, yeah.

It doesn't have to. And we probably all had a leader that that wasn't their why.

Sure.

But also, I mean, I can't forget that. Also, I had a lot of people to help me, right? I can only get so far, you know, without somebody. You know, our president, he has always just invested so much of his time, and he's taught me so much and believed in me when I had no management experience, so somebody had to take a chance.

Well, and I think I know enough about you that you've had that situation, you've been able to pay it forward as well, right? Like, you're doing a lot to invest in people. In fact, before we hit record, you were telling me about a project that you guys are doing as leaders, and I want to get there, but before we get there, just like, it sounds like people took a chance in you and believed in you, and now you're doing the same thing with other people beneath you. Right? And what does that look like for you? Like, on a day-to-day basis, for leaders that are listening right now, and they go, well, I want to pay it forward, I want to invest in people, what are tactical day to day things that you're doing that would fall under the category of, yeah, I'm believing in people or paying it forward type of thing?    
            
Yeah, talk to them.

Well, there you go, listener. But, dive into that a little bit.

It's a tough one.

I wonder if it's tough for you because you just, just who you are. It's like you don't even. I don't know. I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but it's like, you're not trying. You just believe in people, you care about people.

This is what I love about my job. I love working through a problem or issue or struggle. I mean, I had somebody called me the other day, like, I'm really struggling with an, you know, an employee or whatever it may be, and, like, I know I'm part of the problem, and so how do we go from here? And it's just something that I just love.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, it's just kind of integrated into what I do.

Yeah. Yeah. It's who, it's who you are. So, let's go to some projects that you all are doing as a management, a leadership team, an executive team. Listen, you said earlier no one gets or got into the mortgage industry. Most of us didn’t go to school to get into mortgage, let’s put it that way. And you told us how you were going to be a missionary, but you became a mortgage banker. But there’s been some good times and some bad times in mortgage banking and most of the people that are listening to this are all too familiar with the last few years. Boy, it’s been tough. Like really tough. Right? Like we just, we heard an economist this morning that was just all these graphs and everything was red and down and it was just like not good. So, but you all have persevered. You all are working on some projects. You all are doing some things. Would you mind just telling our listeners a little bit about some of that?

Yeah, yeah. You got to keep working on things, you know, because you have to evolve or you're not going to be able to keep up with the rest of the industry. But one of the things that has been kind of a passion of ours for like last three years and I've learned a lot through this process and trying, starting to see the, the value of this is putting a bigger focus on uniting. So, you know, I'm part of the C suite, so reuniting the next level down.

Yep. Right.        

There's a lot of them, right? There's like 32, 33 and how do we build? How do we connect them? Because when things are hard like they are, you know, you tend to see the bad day stress, right? Bad day stress, that's what we call it. And so, you know, you start to see that come out and everyone's kind of not showing up as the best version of themselves and it just makes everything that much harder, right? And I think that once you start to build connection, if you think about the people that you interact with that you have a relationship with, things are not as stressful when you run into an issue. The folks that you don't really know very well, it can be very, very daunting and stressful and then everyone's remote.        

Yeah, yeah, yep, yep. But you're, in spite of, I like the bad day stress thing. My brain just keeps on going back to that. You're putting things in place where you're even in the midst of how hard it is, even in the midst of being remote, that this industry is in, and many industries are right now, you're doing things to build trust. And I'm assuming because of the headwinds that we're talking about, this isn't easy and it doesn't go well all the time.



No. We launched this probably about three years ago, just a more formalized structure. I mean, they've all been in their positions, right? There was a lot of disasters. Yeah, I'm kind of. The way I roll is what we fix them when we find them.

Right, there you go.

You know, I'm definitely not one that waits for perfection to do anything.

Uh huh.

And it drives a lot of people crazy. But so, we launched it, and, you know, year over year, and every year we sent out a survey to everyone, and asked what do you think is working? What do you think needs to work better? And, you know, a whole bunch of questions and go back to the drawing board and think through, like, how can we? Cause we, you know, these are very busy people. How do we create value? Because everything you do has to be valuable, right?

Yep, yep.

But really, and it's funny because, you know, initially, over the last few years, you know, we were trying to figure out how to give them more autonomy, how to give them, you know, empower them. And so, we're trying to find issues and stuff that we could pass down to them so they could work on it and have that, you know, have that autonomy. And then we struggled with that because everything's so time sensitive, and it just, you know, I think through the last set of surveys we just launched, it really became clear. And watching, you know, everyone interacts during such a tough time in the industry and the different projects that we are doing, that's when you have this one, that cross departmental interaction, that there is a lack of trust. And that's not, when I first said that out loud, everyone's like, no, we do trust everyone. You know, like, kind of defensive, and it's like, but how would you trust them if you don't know them?

Yeah.        

I mean, you are virtual. You hop on a couple of meetings, but, like, I don't think the expectations that you trust everybody the minute you meet them, right? And so how do we develop that? So, we kind of redid everything this year, and now they're all broken into teams because 32 people talking at the same time is a lot, but, you know, broke them into teams. And now we're just focusing on answering questions of getting to know you.

Yeah. Yeah.

Are you a cat person or dog person? Right?

Right. Yep.

But then having the interactions as somebody has to, like, ask a clarifying question or comment to that to create some of that interaction and that, you know, even though these folks, a lot of them been here for a very long time, once a month, somebody's doing a, like, either a video or PowerPoint about what they do. Let's get to know each other because, you know, and I am of a belief, I still, TBD, because we don't know the outcome, but the belief that if we can really start to develop these relationships, the issues won't come up to us because there won't be issues. They'll come together. They'll figure it out. They're all incredibly brilliant people. They're all very, you know, great at their jobs and they'll just, through that relationship, they'll start to just handle things because they, you know, they won't feel defensive and all these other things that come with when you don't know somebody.

Chrissy, there's so many good things in what you just said. First of all, you're surveying your people and you're doing something about it. I can't tell you how many organizations, when I was in corporate America, we get these, you know, uh, annual surveys or whatever, and then the next year when we would do the survey, I'm like, we're all saying the same stuff, but we're not seeing any changes. Like, why are you asking me if you're not going to do something about it? So, I don't know. Just to hear that you're, you know, at the head of an organization, that one surveys your people, good on you for that. But then you're actually doing something about it. The other thing that I wrote down is you specifically are, like, speaking the unsaid. You're like, hey, looks like we don't trust each other, and that doesn't sound very good.

It does not.

But you said it because apparently you saw it and you're hearing it, and then now if I spoke the unsaid, now we can actually do something about it.

Yes.        

And you're doing something, and it sounds like it might not be perfect.

Oh, it's not.

Sounds like there's a lot of headwinds.

yeah, of course.

And you see, even said TBD, like, I don't, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I mean, like, I don't even know exactly how it's going to come out, but we're going to do it anyway.        
          
Yes.

I see my observation right now in the middle of, you know, pretty serious economic headwinds, especially for the mortgage and real estate industry, is there's many COO’s, so your peers and other companies, they're not doing it anyways. They're doing a lot of, let's look at spreadsheets, let's put our head in the sand. Let's operate out of fear. And what I'm hearing from you is, no, we're going to do these projects, we're going to build trust. We're going to hear from our people what they're interested in. Now we know more about them. Now I can make a joke or have fun or maybe I've something in common with them. Like there's things that you're doing in spite of the headwinds.        

 
            
Yes, yes. I mean, it's easy to not do those things. I mean, I actually, when trying to come up with a prescribed agenda that was not focused around business for, you know, 32 different departments and different personalities, that was more challenging than I ever thought it would be.

I'm listening to that going yikes.

It should be so simple, right? But, you know, it's so important. Why not do the things that will make our lives easier. All of us, you know? Again, going back to I love people, right? I want them to enjoy coming into work.

Sure.        

I don't want them to be stressed out and our lack of relationship is stressing them out, right?

Sure.

Why would we do that to ourselves?

Yeah. In the name of sometimes technology or efficiency or productivity or whatever, people skip some of those steps. But it sounds like you guys are taking those steps, which, listen, when you're doing a presentation on my life story or what I'm interested in or whatever, the actual work isn't getting done. But I don't know, Chrissy, I contend if you take the time to do those things, the work that you engage in, first of all, it's just more fun because now I like you, I trust you. I have something in common with you. I didn't know you were a dog person, but so am I.

Right.

And now the work, one is more enjoyable, but two, I don't know. You tell me potentially more productive as well.

TBD.

More TDB.

                                                                                                       
"But, you know, relationships equal efficiency. Bottom line."



Boom. That's a, that's a tweetable right there.        

Yeah. I mean, I say that a lot and we're meeting with new recruits and things like that because of the way we're like our structure operationally, very, very focused at our company on relationships.

Yeah.

And if you think through that, like, whether in your personal life or professional life, you're waiting for an underwriter to make a decision. Like, if you have a relationship with that under, you know, them, you talk, you know that they're a cat or dog person. Right? You know, you know, kind of how they operate because people are fascinating. I mean, all the different personalities and different triggers and defense mechanisms and all of those things. And when you start to really understand them and learn them and you have those relationships, you know, I use this example when I'm talking to sales of why, you know, they have one underwriter at our company, right? You don't have like a round robin. It's because relationships equal eventually trust.

Yeah.

And if you trust them, how much quicker are your approvals and denials going to. How are those conversations going to go, right? So, if you're talking to somebody you don't know, you're questioning whether or not they made the right decision. Do you really need this document? Do you really need this one? Are you sure? Blah, blah, blah, blah. But if it's somebody that you trust, different, like, yeah. I mean, when I was underwriting at a Lenny Bay, I was able to, you know, call my loan officers and say, hey, I'm going to deny this loan. And they're like, okay, sucks.      

Right. As opposed to, like, this immediate conflict thing. If you didn't know one another, they already trust the fact that you're doing your best, you're trying your hardest. Your goal is to approve the loan, but it ain't going to happen with this one. And because that level of trust is up there, okay, we, now we know it.

They know I care. I'm not just going to do it because I'm having a bad day, you know?

Yeah. Trust, care. I mean, what you said, relationships equal productivity and relationships equal trust. I don't know. Those things, they're all kind of inter. I think about your jungle gym thing there again, like, it's all intertwined. There's no, like, one path to productivity or success, but I don't know, that path of relationship sounds one more fun. And then two, like, I'm having a better time, and I'm being more productive at the same time.

And I'm sure you guys have all the I don't have data and stuff like that, but the statistics on, you know, all the different things that actually increase productivity are not the things you would think, right?

Well, that's right. It's a lot of the soft skills.

Yes. Yep. Even, like, the self-care, like we were talking about earlier. All of those things end up creating efficiency. But people feel like, I mean, I think this is kind of like an old school mentality of, like, you know, I've got to work harder. I got to do more. Got to do more. It's like, I read this thing that says, you know, stop wearing burnout as your badge of honor.

Oh, so true.

Right? But that's coming from the generation I'm from. That's what you do.

I know. Grind it. You gotta go hustle. Nobody cares. Yeah, I love a lot of the things that you're saying, Chrissy, but the reason that I love it is when I observe somebody like you doing the things that you're describing right now, I see productivity, and I'm like, well, that works. Go. Go do that. But there's this tangibility around, well, I'm gonna put in more hours or I'm gonna grind it harder or whatever. And there are times where you do a little grind and it works, and you get that thing and you ring the bell and get the dopamine or the recognition or whatever it is, but it's just not sustainable. What you're talking about having real, authentic relationships with people, taking the time to listen. Empathy, trust. Relationships, those things. First of all, again, more fun, better, I don't know, more augmented as a human being and, oh, yeah, more productive as well. So, it all kind of works together.        

But you have to be willing to do the hard stuff. Not just a structure or how to put it together, but with all relationships, when you start to get to know each other and you start to hear or trust about other person, you know, there are personality differences and there are offenses, and, you know, so having to work through those things as well, you gotta be willing to go through the fire.

You're making me think of one time I had a client, and this is not, it sounds like a joke, but it's not a joke. Do you have a script, Jason, that shows that I care?        

Oh, my God.

No, no. Actually, we don't. You just need to actually care first.

That's so funny you say that, because I say this to my leaders when they're going into a hard conversation, right? Or they had one, it went sideways. I'm like, let me ask you a question first. Did you actually really care about the person, or did you just need to get the message out?

Yeah.

Right? I mean, as if you don't actually care about that person and what you're talking about when that hard conversation is not going to go well.

Nope.

Because a minute that they don't feel like you care about them, defenses are up, they're not hearing anything. You know, you have to care.

Yeah, yeah. It's so true. You have to care. And, uh, and the thing about, like, okay, uh, Chrissy said, I need to care. Okay, I'm gonna care. That's very different than I really care about you and I want the best for you. And we're gonna have this hard conversation. It's not gonna go well, but at the end of the day, I care about you. That's a, just a different vibe. And things happen differently there.

People feel the vibe. They can feel it.

Even virtually, right? So, in this new world, we'll speak about this and then we'll kind of head towards home during this conversation. How do you do that? Because I know you said, like, gosh, we're almost all virtual now, but people still feel the vibe. Like that happens whether you're on the phone or whatever, like, how do you navigate that? Like, what's the Chrissy Brown gps of navigating the vibe through virtual?

Well, I don’t know that I have a gps for that. Yeah, I think just a lot of things are in camera, right? I do not like camera. It's a lot to stare at yourself all day long. But, you know, just watching mannerisms and watching how people show up and, you know, but really it's, you know, what I see right now is just the defensiveness and the reaction to stress, you know, and just kind of picking up. But you can tell from somebody's face the minute the eyebrow moves, like, this is not going well.

Yeah.

You know? So we need to kind of backtrack and go a different direction.

You seem to be a real observer of people. Like, whether it's the facial expressions or the voice tonality. It sounds like you're really tuned into that. And that helps. I don't sense from you at all, Chrissy, like, you're like, I have all the answers.        

No, no, no, I am learning every day.

Yeah, there's a humbleness there and a transparency. Well, I can see why there was one day when you were a receptionist, and then there's today where an executive, like, it makes sense, as I listen to you. And so, the people that your peers and the people that work for you, it's obvious that they're lucky. And I don't know, I'd love to have a bird's eye view of you, like, doing that thing, paying it forward, like investing in people the way that people invested in you. So I'm, I don't know, I'm psyched for them. As we finish out our conversation today, it's been really good. I got a whole page of notes here. And it's funny, I say that a lot of times, you know, you and I are in person. I'll say that when we're recording a podcast over Zoom, be like, oh, I have a page of notes. You can literally see, right? I have a page.

Yeah, you really do.

These have been some good, these have been some good nuggets that, that you've dropped on us. Anything that I haven't asked you that you'd like our audience to know?

No, I think that was, that was great.        
            
We covered it. Yeah, we covered it. Well, Chrissy, you did it. Once again, thank you for your time. Thank you for your expertise, your selflessness. Congratulations on what you're doing. Even in the midst of, of the headwinds, uh, I can't wait to see, like, the productivity and the things that come about as a result of it. So, thanks for being on the show.

Thank you.       
 

Well, that interview with Chrissy Brown was just another good one in the books. Boy, could you just hear the words that she was speaking. Trust, vulnerability, relationships, empathy, people are my passion. These are just things that, when I hear some of her statistics, and I didn't, I didn't really say many of these statistics, but she is the chief operating officer for an organization with over 850 people. Shes an organization that in a bad year, their loan productivity is over three and a half billion.        

Just to give you some semblance of relativity, that's a very large organization that she is the chief operating officer of, and one of the kudos that she didn't mention is that one of the industry rags, the national mortgage news, they just voted her organization, Atlantic Bay, the best large lender to work for. So, you know, she's very humble in, you know, saying that she doesn't have all the answers and I think that is partly what's so endearing about her, what just makes everything that she said about truly caring for people, you know, very real. So anyways, the insights that I had were just that whole piece about being real with people, caring for people at a at just a human level. That was just something that stuck with me. But as we end every episode of The Insight Interviews, it's not much about what my insights were, but what insights did you have?

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