Andrea Herron is the VP of HR at WebMD, a published author of “There’s an Elephant in Your Office,” a sought-after keynote speaker, and host of the award-winning podcast, The HR Scoop. She was honored with Ragan’s Top Women in Wellness and HR Award, selected as an Agent of Change in American Healthcare Leader magazine, and a Top Leader in DEIB by Mogul. She lives in Portland, Oregon, with her husband and two kids.
Andrea's passion for shaping the future of work is evident through her dedication to education and impactful coaching outcomes. She is committed to personal transformation, inspiring next-generation leaders, and advocating for a strategic approach to cultivating a culture that enhances performance through a holistic, whole-person perspective.
“When you're in a leadership position trying to help people navigate work and personal challenges, it's easy to develop a savior complex and feel responsible for their outcomes. Remember, you can do your best, but you cannot control an adult's mental health, physical health, or behavior. Build relationships, provide tools and resources, be a trusted person they can talk to, and the rest is up to them.”
- Andrea Herron
Website: Rewire, Inc.: Transformed Thinking
Hello, and welcome everybody to this episode of The Insight interviews. This is your host, Jason Abell, and I've got a guest that came across my desk got scheduled, and the day that she got scheduled and I saw who it was, I did a little fist pump to myself. Like, I got excited, because any time that I can interview heads of HRs, people that have been in human resources for a long time and have seen some things, so to speak, I just get excited because I recognize that people that are in HR at the level that my guest is today, they've just come across good, bad, ugly, have been able to, you know, sort out a lot of different things for organizations, and more importantly, for individuals. And so, I'll introduce our guest today, this is none other than Andrea Herron. So check this out. Andrea is the head of people at WebMD. You've probably heard of WebMD before. She's an HR executive leader. She published her own book called “There's an elephant in your office”, which we need to touch on. Andrea, that title alone is intriguing to me. And she's the host of the award winning podcast, the HR scoop. And she was recently selected as one of Reagan's Top Women in wellness and HR, and an agent of change in American health by American health care leader magazine. So, without further ado, Andrea, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me. I am also very excited to be here. So, I appreciate it.
So, we're going to start off with a question that we've asked over 240 times. Every single guest that we've had on the show gets this very first question and it's really to face us in a certain direction. And I think, you know, after reading some of your background, I think you'll appreciate this question. And it's this, Andrea. You know, you're on one side of the country, I'm on the other side of the country right now, we're in different time zones, we're coming into this call with maybe different experiences even today, but to kind of clear the space for u, if I mention the word gratitude, and I asked you the question, who or what as you and I are with one another right now, who are what are you especially grateful for, how would you answer that question?
Gratitude is so important, and I am glad that you asked it over 240 times or whatever. I am grateful for so many things that it’ hard to narrow down to be honest. I think right now because I am in Portland, Oregon, and the sun is out, the easy answer is I am really grateful for sunshine today. But even more than that, you know, I'm grateful that I have the chance to help make workplaces better and focus on mental health and try to, you know, focus on my own too sometimes.
Yeah, I appreciate that vulnerability. You know, we have a handful of employees in Oregon everywhere and yeah, I hear about the non-sun and the rain, and when I have a chance one or two times a year to get out that way and it is sunny, they’re like it's never sunny here, but today it is, so you know yeah, I get it and I hear you that's a that's not something to take for granted. So I hear you loud and clear. Well, let's go from there to the deep end of the pool. As I did my research, I found out pretty quickly that mental health is something that is super important to you. So much so that you started a company with your sister, and you wrote a book that has something to do with mental health. So, I'd love to just hear, you know, maybe 30,000-foot view and then we'll go deeper. Like, why is mental health something that is near and dear to you and that you're passionate about?
Yeah, great question. It wasn't always that way. You know, mental health has stigma around it. Not a lot of people talk about it. So, I very often get asked, you know, why do you care? And the answer is, because it became very personal to me through my sister, actually, in 2018. She called me freaking out, because I'm her sister in HR, and she wanted my input because she was going to get fired from her job. And she comes out with, you know, my therapist, and I've been working on this plan, but I had to change medications. And what? I had no idea. This is my sister; we grew up in the same house together. She told me she had severe anxiety and depression, for the first time on that phone call and it was surprising. Of course, I kept my cool after all these years of receiving all sorts of information in HR, I've learned how to keep a straight face. But I was shocked, you know? And I immediately thought, if I don't know what is going on with my own sister, I most certainly don't know what's going on with anybody, including the people that work in my organization. So, as I tried to find resources to help her or help her manager, or send her HR team, I couldn't find anything except legalese, and medical definitions of Disability Act. And so, once we got her through that situation, in which she did not get fired, but instead, you know, was able to work a different schedule and some other things that could have helped her through that short, difficult time, we just realized that we wanted to help other people, because there was a desert of information. So, we wrote, “There's an elephant in your office” together, from the perspective of an employee having a mental health crisis, and from my perspective of HR and business and leadership as to what we can actually do to help people in the workplace not get to that point. And then, that published in 2019, and then 2020 happened.
Yeah.
And mental health, I think we all were forced to realize, plays an enormous role in how we operate and function inside and outside of work. And so, we actually updated the book and in 2022 published a second edition to encapsulate remote work, and how that varies from a mental health perspective, as in person does. So, we try to keep it fresh.
Yeah, the more I hear you talk about it, first of all, thank you for just the personal aspect of your answer there. And how cool is it that you and your sister, you know, took what was not a, I'm sure not a great time for her or you, and going through that to something positive that you're putting out there to help other people. I'm a real big believer of bringing mental health and the awareness of it and the importance of it to the forefront. I see that even today, in 2024, mental health is getting much better, I think, because of people like you and books like what you wrote, but I can't wait, and I hope we live long enough Andrea to see the day where when there is a mental health issue, like depression or anxiety, or any of the myriad of other issues, it's treated with the same kind of social acceptance as if I broke my arm. It's just another part of the body that for the time isn't working right. If I break my finger, I go to the doctor and I'm like, hey, I broke my finger, I need you to set it, surgery, cast it, I don't know, whatever. If something's going wrong with my brain, it's just a different part of the body that might need to be worked on a little bit. And so anyways, thank you for telling that part of the story. Thank you for writing the book. Now I'm intrigued because I haven't read your book. What is the big idea of the book? Like obviously, we're gonna put it in the show notes, and I want people to go out and read it but tempt us a little bit with the big idea of the book.
Yes, so in the book, we take the metaphor of a herd of elephants, to make it a little bit more approachable. Because when you're talking about triggering, or, you know, there's stigma and shame associated with mental health, so we tried to make it a little bit cheekier, as I like to say. So, in the book, there are three herds of elephants and that represents just the biggest group of people who have a mental illness in the workplace. So, we know that one in five US adults experiences a mental health disorder every year. One in five is a lot. If you're looking at you and your team at work or your family, one in five really kind of brings it home. And so, we break down that group into people who just have a difficulty adjusting, like the stress becomes too much because of a normal life situation, but their coping mechanisms aren't working for them, and so they're just having a really hard time. So, you can think of someone going through a divorce, or who has a loved one with a severe illness or natural pandemic. You know, these things that occur, but some of us are able to kind of buoy ourselves and then sometimes when it's just too much, we really, really struggle. So the book talks about signs, when you might notice that someone is having that and how to help them kind of recover. Then there's the second herd, which was just the invisible elephants. Those are really what we tend to think of being anxiety, depression, PTSD, bipolar disorder. The kind of the ones that, I think, stereotypically, we imagine, and these are people that live with a mental health disorder, and they're doing their best. They want to be there, and they want to do well in their job. And so, we talk about how that might show up when they're not managing it, or they're having a hard time and how you as a leader, a business owner, or even a colleague, can help make it easier for them to do the job you hired them to do, because that's ultimately what everyone wants.
Sure.
And then the last group is the rampaging. And those are people that have, you know, a mental health outburst. You can think of this as a meltdown, either emotionally or physically, or even online, just really out of character and kind of this explosive reaction, which nobody wants to have.
Yeah.
Right? This is not like anyone says, you know what, I'm going to throw a fit and cry at work today and make it really awkward for everyone. So again, there are personal stories that go with all of these that I'd have seen through my HR career, as well as tips and tools which we can talk about some of them today, that anyone can do and know, but especially if you are a team leader, a manager, a business owner, or someone who just works and a lot of teams, these are really, really helpful to ensure the people are there to be successful. And you can make your bottom line you can have a good culture. This is not to get out of performance or anything like that.
I mean, just from what you just told about the three categories of elephants, I feel like this is in the way that you explained it, I feel like this should be required reading for anybody in business, not just the leaders either. Like because just looking side to side at your team members and just having that awareness seems like yeah, it's just seems like it should be required reading. So, you tempted me there with your tips and tools. You know, a lot of our audience is executives and in leadership roles. Most of our listeners are in some sort of leadership role, and I think mental health is almost like I was listening to Peter Attia’s book earlier today, I think it's called “Outlive”. I can't remember the name, but it's a very good book, but way more in the weeds than I can comprehend, but "the analogy that I'm trying to make here, not very well, but is cancer is one of those things that the preventative measures that you can take your entire life are way better than, oh, I just got diagnosed with cancer now, what do I do? And so, I think like when I hear you talk about your book, the preventative measures and the awareness that people can have around mental health issues like you're talking about, boy, that would just be a proactive measure, that would be so much better than typically the reactive nature that leaders play. And, uh oh, somebody did have an outbreak. Oh, my gosh. I didn't know this was happening with my team member. You know, those types of things. So anyways, with that context laid out, what types of tips and tactics and tools would you recommend for leadership these days when it comes to the topic of mental health?
"I couldn't agree with you more that preventative is always better, because when it gets to the point of crisis, now you're talking about someone being unable to work or they're showing up and not working, which is, again, not good for business."
Not good for anybody.
So, there are definitely a few things. And I agree again that everyone can do, not just business leaders, but especially people working with and leading others. One is you got to start with building a foundation of trust. I mean, that is true for just basic relationship building, but if people don't trust you, they're certainly not going to share anything vulnerable with you that has some stigma associated with it already. And one way that you can start to build that, if you're not sure, is something I call it take 10 check in. And the idea is, it could be less than 10 minutes, but weekly, or every time you have a few minutes, even in passing, there are three questions that you can ask that will give you so much information and create that baseline of how people are, so you can tell when things start to shift. So, the questions are, how are you doing? How is the team doing? And how can I help? So, when you ask someone how are you doing, you're gonna get some information, right? They're gonna give you something. But when you ask, how's the team doing, as humans, we subconsciously project our own thoughts and feelings onto others. So, when you ask how the team is, you're really getting a deeper answer on how they are doing and how they are viewing the work and the team.
Very insightful. I haven't really thought about it that way. I want to hear your third question, but I'm just resting on that one, because that's slick, because you're getting their take on how the team is doing and their take is, yeah, the projection thing. So oh, that's good. Andrea. Okay. What’s the third question?
Who cares about the third question? No, just kidding. But that really is the golden question because everything we do is filtered through our own view, every time we have feelings about something that happened or something that someone else did, it's because of how we view it and we feel it. It doesn't really have that much to do with the actual action of the other person. The third question is, how can I help? And that one is good, because if they give you something, then you have an opportunity to show up, to deliver, or to actually help, which builds that trust, and makes them know that you are going to follow through and then I'm more likely to give you more information the next time, because you did that.
Yeah, that's so good. So, in other words, not just lip service but if you do get some tangible answer to that third question, go act on it. Go do something about it and then that's just a little notch in the trust building activity that you're working on with your people. So oh, man, that's so good. I have 28 other questions just about your question. That is really, I mean, that is really good. And I know, you know, as we talk to leaders over the years, 1000s of them that we've coached and given talks to and workshops to, I have observed leaders who I think naturally do, it might not be, they may not say okay, today, I'm gonna go in, and I'm going to do the take 10 Check in, they are just the type of person that asks those types of questions. You know, maybe it's not in that order, maybe it's not every day, maybe it's not perfect, but they're, you know, but then there's others, and maybe newer leaders, or leaders that have gotten recently promoted, and they're embarrassed to say that they don't really know how to lead at that level. But they could take this, you know, the take 10 check in and go, huh, because you, I don't know, you don't need to have a whole lot of skill set to ask those questions, you can just try them on for size and, and see how it goes. That's another thing I really liked about that is, you know, just the process around it and the fact that you don't have to be an excellent communicator, you don't have to be the smartest person in the room, you don't have to put on airs, you just say let's try to ask these questions of my teammates.
So yeah, great point. Because in the beginning, its structure. You know, there's, how are you doing? How's the team doing? How can I help? That's easy to remember and then over time, you can absolutely alter it or use language that fits you better or the team better, but especially just getting in a rhythm of asking open ended questions and then listening is absolutely key to building that relationship so then people are more likely to come to you when they actually do have a problem down the road and they know that you're a trusted person they can talk to and that's not going to happen if you don't build that foundation before something starts to change.
So, I want more tips and techniques, but one question that does come to mind as you know, a lot of our clients and a lot of our listeners are heads of HRs, Director of HR, similar, you know, to roles that you've been in and that you are currently in, and I do see a lot of those job titles, those people, man, they're just spread so thin, they're putting out so many fires and the idea of being proactive and doing some of these things, and I want to get to more of them that you're suggesting, wonderful, great. No one's gonna say, oh, that's terrible. The reality of putting some of the proactive things into place, rather than just reactive, then there's this fire, and then I got to be reactive again and now I'm stressed and anxious and, or whatever. I don't know. What would you what would you say to that? As I'm experiencing you and engaging you right now, I’m just not sensing that from you. So, I don't know. What do you think of when I say that?
Well, it takes effort. I mean, you're right. And especially people who start their own business, or who are leading, who are just passionate about the work they're doing, tend to over give, for obvious reasons, right? Because they want to, they are jazzed, they're really determined to make it work. But we've all heard you gotta put your own oxygen mask on first. You can't pour from an empty cup. All of these things are true and they're classics for a reason, and it is imperative not only for your own wellbeing, I mean that's first and foremost, you have to give yourself whatever self-care or time so you don't burn out, because if you burn out, you can't do anything, but equally, well, maybe not equally, slightly less important, but still very important is the aspect of setting the example to give other people permission to do the same.
"Because when you are in a visibility position, whatever that may look like for you, what you don't realize is that people are watching you for permission that they may not even realize they need. But for permission to also take a day off, to not answer an email at midnight, to admit a mistake. So, I think what is just crucial in a business setting is that you are setting the example, because people follow what they see, not what they hear you say."
And the number one indicator that a culture will be psychologically safe and thus, more successful, is if the leaders openly discuss mental and emotional wellbeing. It is the number one indicator because it then gives everyone else permission to also talk about it, and it's okay, and they're not going to get reprimanded, they're not going to be weird, or, you know, worry about fear of retaliation. So how do you openly discuss and role model how you're taking care of yourself, including time off, when you're answering emails, how many days a week you're working, your work life balance, good for you, but also directly impacts how people in your organization feel they can do those same things.
If I'm a leader listening to this conversation right now, and in the back of my head, even though I don't want to admit that I just heard what you said, and I go, I'm failing at that, what would you recommend that I do?
I think a lot of us are in that boat, right? I think we don't want to be doing that work but we feel like we have to or whatever reason. Some simple things, you know, in your meetings, you can start checking in with people, you can share a story about how you are taking time off, or how someone in your life was impacted by something. Just say anything. Start somewhere. That's good. Also, if you want to be, I don't want to say sneaky, but if we're trying to bridge the gap between here and there, and I have seen leaders do that is successful, I think, in helping is if you're going to send the emails at night, or you're working on the weekend, go ahead and write the email or do the work but schedule the send for Monday morning- for the next morning. You really need to get out of your brain, but you don't want to show people that they should be working at 10 o'clock too, just schedule it for the next morning. And is it going to be weird if all their emails go out at 8am? Maybe. But it's better than them getting it Saturday night and thinking, am I supposed to respond or not?
Yeah, it's such a good call, because we all have our email on our phones these days and it's just, I don't know, it's socially acceptable, like, okay, I have a minute or I am in line for the movie out on a date night on a Saturday night and you're right. I hit the email because I do and that's, you know, and then I see something from my boss or, you know, yeah, I hear you. Now I'm in a different frame of mind than I was before and so, I think what you're getting at, if I'm hearing you right, the totality of what you're saying is, well, if my boss is doing that, then is that expected of me also? And now I'm on edge about that, or I'm thinking about that or whatever. So, yeah, I hear you loud and clear on that. So good. So good. You mentioned something a few minutes ago about visibility and I've read some of your material and visibility and leadership is something that is important to you and something that you've thought a lot about. When I say visibility and leadership, what do you think about?
Well, I think one is not being afraid to start the conversation, right? To highlight whatever benefits or tools or resources your company is already paying for, talk about them, Maybe tell a story about how someone you knew, it doesn't even have to be that you personally, used them or benefited from XYZ or being very open about I'm taking a vacation, I will be out of the office and not try to be subtle, but to be more overt, on purpose, to show that you're taking care of yourself. Those are really great ways. And honestly, it comes down to authenticity. I know we hear that word, but really, it's the effort to close the gap between who you are on the inside and how you show up on the outside.
Yeah.
People know when you're being fake, you know, when people are being fake.
Yeah.
I just always think about, you know, the viral stories are the professor that holds the baby because the mom's childcare fell through, but she wanted to take her final exam. Those go viral because that leader showed up or I'm having a terrible day, the voicemails, I'm sure we've heard different versions of this and the boss says, don't worry about it, we'll cover your shift- you take care of you. That's an employee for life, because that person feels taken care of and that leader is visibly saying, we've got this, I see where you are, we will handle it, you just take care of you.
You're making me think of a story. When I was in the middle of my corporate America years, I had a death of a very close family member and then my boss called me on the phone as soon as he heard, and, man, I'll never forget that phone call. He's like Jason, and I had a lot of people reporting to me at a time. And it's never a good time in business for things to you know, go haywire. And there's just a lot of irons in the fire, a lot of things going on, and he said, Jason, you take off as much time as you need, it's unlimited, I completely have you covered, and do whatever it is that you need to do. And that was so, at the time, because I was in the middle of the grind and the hustle in those days and that was such a foreign thing to me, but it was so much what I needed. And I tell you, I'm loyal to that guy to this day, and he hasn't been my boss for 10 years. And I would do anything for that guy today because he meant it when he said it. Oh, and then he did it. Kind of like what you were saying with your three questions. He literally did cover me, and it was hell on him for about a week or 10 days. And so yeah, I lived out the technique that you just talked about.
That's amazing. And that's what true leadership is, it’s that human to human connection. And to be honest, I'm sure he wasn't thinking of it this way but we know based on the data and research that in that situation, you came back to work sooner, and you performed better and you were present more and you jumped back in exponentially faster than if you had taken three days off and suffered through a lingering bout of grief and not taking care of everything for months and months and months.
Yeah, very likely. That's right. I know this guy well enough to know that no, there were no ulterior motives there. It was a human to a human connection, and he meant it. And I mean, there was there was the possibility that things got really bad for us, and I didn't come back to work. I mean, I think it was one of those types of deaths. And yeah, I did, and again, I'm still loyal to him to this day. If he called me right now, I’d pick him up and do whatever he asked me to do, you know, type of thing, and so now, it wasn't just that one phone call, right? Like he, you know, the type of person that says something like that back to your authenticity remark is, you know, he had built up a lot of trust over the years and that was just one of the major things that happened, so.
Well, yeah, because if he had been wishy washy, and then he said that and you didn't really believe it, the outcome would not have been the same.
Yeah, very different, very different. Angie, I feel like we could have you know, a two-hour conversation. Any other the take 10 checklist, the tips that you had around visibility and leadership, sharing story, asking questions, you know, basically providing the example. not just the words, but the actions behind the words, any other tips or techniques that you would have for our listeners that are in leadership?
I’ll give you a one-word tip and then a comment. So, the tip would be that you probably need to give, especially certain people, but when in doubt, more notice when changes are coming. Because there is one thing, we know about people who have mental health struggles is that last minute changes and a lack of consistency brew a lot of things off. It’s very difficult to manage. So, if you know or think someone needs more time, please do not hesitate, even if it's a month away, and you think, oh, it's a month, that's too far. It really isn't. So as soon as you know a change is coming, it's okay, and probably better to let people know right away and then if they don't need it, they can discard it out of their brain. But for a lot of people, they really need that processing time for the best outcome.
Yeah, makes me think of an on ramp right into highway traffic. You don't just like get on, right? There's an on ramp where you gain speed and so I don't know why that's the analogy I'm coming up with, but yeah, giving people some insight and some notice that changes coming. Yeah, that's really good. No one likes abrupt change, even if you're well balanced, and well, whatever, in a good place. Like nobody likes abrupt change. So yeah.
But I like your metaphor of the on ramp, because I think a lot of times as the leader or the project manager or whatever, you know the exits coming, you know that it's happening and so you forget that other people don’t know, and so you kind of have to work that muscle to practice. I had to work at this myself. Giving people an intentional heads up versus assuming they know what you know, because they usually don't, or they maybe heard it once in passing. But is it real? Is it happening? You know, that's again, people wait for that permission to know it's coming.
Yes. So good. So good. Is there, again, I feel like we could have a multi hour conversation. Is there anything under the leadership topics, HR topics, elephant in your office topic, anything that I haven't asked you that you want to make sure that we get to before we end our time together today?
Well, I agree we could talk all day on this, but I think the one thing I would love to leave your listeners with is that they are not responsible for other adults behavior. So I think this gets tricky, because when you're in a leadership position, and you're trying to help people navigate being a human and being at work, and maybe there's known mental health challenges that you want to support, oftentimes, we can get a savior complex, or we can just take on the responsibility that whatever happens next is because we did or did not do something. So, I want to give you all permission to know that you do your best, but you cannot dictate an adult’s mental health or physical health or their behavior, all you can do is build that relationship, provide tools and resources, be a trusted person they can talk to, and the rest is up to them.
Yeah, that's so good. I'm going to make this podcast episode required listening for all of our clients. I mean, anybody, and heck, I've been guilty of this from time to time, that advice, I need to be reminded of from time to time, and so do all of our clients. I just had a client very recently who was having, we talked for half an hour on just the topic that you brought up, and it's just such a good reminder. So yeah, what a great place to end. So, so profound. Andrea, I have a feeling people are gonna want to reach out to you. What's the best way for people to do that?
Well, you can always find me on LinkedIn and otherwise, I have a website where I sell my book and my consulting and coaching, and lots of free resources out there. So, you know, please stop by and reach out if I can help anybody, speaking, chatting, podcasts, I love it all. I just really, really think this information is needed and I try to share it as far and wide as I can to help as many people as possible. So, thank you again, for having me and I hope you all took at least one little nugget away.
I have a feeling people took many nuggets away, Andrea. Thank you for your time today. Again, I do think people will reach out to you. Heck, we will probably reach out to you again. You've given selflessly of your time today. I took two pages of notes that I'm looking over right now. So, thank you for your time, your expertise and what you're doing out in the world.
My pleasure.
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