Adele Gambardella is a seasoned public relations expert with over 15 years of experience owning and managing a Top 20 PR firm in Washington, DC. She has represented Fortune 100 companies such as DuPont, Lockheed Martin, and Verizon, serving as a spokesperson and securing high-profile media coverage on platforms like Good Morning America, The Today Show, and The New York Times.
Adele has also been a PR strategist, corporate counsel, and crisis management consultant for clients including Facebook, Johnson & Johnson, and President Joe Biden.She is the co-author of the book Convince Me: High-Stakes Negotiation Tactics to Get Results in Any Business Situation. She speaks and advises globally, including at the United Nations, and has taught at prestigious universities like Princeton and Georgetown. Starting her career as a journalist, she contributes to The Wall Street Journal, Inc., and Entrepreneur magazines. Her agency, formerly titled Epic, has been reinvented to focus on the science of convincing and rebranded as the Convincing Company.
“I would say the person who is malleable is the one who will get through the crisis the easiest. If they can recognize their own role in why they got into the crisis, they'll be better able to recover. You want to forgive yourself, move past it, and understand that by taking certain actions, you can reach the light on the other side.”
- Adele Gambardella
Hello and welcome everybody to this episode of The Insight Interviews. This is your host, Jason Abell, and I tell you every single one of us, we need someone to call. When things go bad, it makes me think of Ghostbusters, like who you gonna call? When things really go wrong, you need somebody to call, but when things go really right, you also need someone to call, and my guest today, Adele Gambardella, she checks both of those boxes. So, listen to this. Adele owns her own PR firm in Washington, DC, and she has run successful PR campaigns for US Presidents, CEOs of global corporations, and in addition to all the good things PR, she's also helped people out with crisis PR campaigns for brands such as SAP, Verizon and Johnson and Johnson. So, when things go right or things go wrong, Adele is the person that you want to call. Adele, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much, Jason. Thanks for having me.
Adele, I've got so many things that I want to get into with you, as far as crisis campaigns and as far as how you help organizations do their public relations, but if you've listened to any episodes, which I think you have, you know my very first question has nothing to do with any of that but is this. As you and I engage one another today in July 2024, who or what are you particularly grateful for?
Wow. I am absolutely grateful for my children and to get the summer with them. You know, they're at really good ages, nine and 12, and I'm just grateful to spend some time with them, and it makes me relax too.
Yeah, and you and I talked pre-recording, and we both, you know, I've got adult children, but you've got children that are kind of what I refer to as in the thick of it, with all kinds of things going on. And so, yeah, throttling back for summer has got to be good.
Yeah, it's good. It forces you to do it, right? Like I had to take vacations. I have to take that time. So, you know, certified workaholic, it requires you to do it.
Well, speaking of work, you know, in the intro I gave some of your chops, but you've got books that you've authored, you've got a company that you started, you've taught classes at Cornell, Georgetown, Princeton. I mean, there's some really neat experiences and neat stories that you have. I'd love to hear how does one get even get into the industry that you're in, at the level that you do? I mean, could you just give us a little brief history of things that aren't just the highlights that I mentioned?
Sure, absolutely. So, I started my career at George magazine, so John F, Kennedy Jr's publication. That was my first job. It was my internship, and then my first job out of college. And so, it was so exciting to work in that environment in New York City, around John F, Kennedy Jr, obviously, right? So that was an incredible experience. I met such high-profile people, and I have to say that that first job, I think, opened so many doors for me, because every time I put that on a resume, people were like, did you meet him? What was he like? What was it like to work there? What happened? And so, people were really intrigued by just that one thing on my resume, and I think that that really set me up. But by then, I was a journalist for a while. For two years after that, I worked for the Asbury Park Press, which got bought out by Gannett, and then I was a reporter for USA Today. I loved being a reporter. I felt like that was a great job. Really suited my personality, but I also had to pay back my student loans. I am one of the first ones in my family to graduate from college, so it was one of those things where it's like I've got this big student loan debt just staring me in the face and like, I love journalism, but it does not pay the bills. So I went over to the dark side, as they call Public Relations when you're a journalist.
Yes.
Some of my stuff is so serendipitous. I just happened to have that happen during the.com era. So all these .coms were being launched. So, I launched one 800 flowers. I did their first national campaign. I launched moviefone.com, totally dating myself.
I remember that.
I launched eBay, right? So, like huge, huge, huge online companies, and so just doing that and having the journalistic perspective made me kind of a standout in the PR industry and I got promoted really quickly because my bent was not to be super positive. I know that might shock people, but no, I mean, like, I wasn't your, like, typical Click Clack, PR girl in the Louis Vuitton outfit. I was more serious. I was a journalist. I was always coming from that's a great idea, but it doesn't really make sense, and the media are going to skewer you about it. And so, I just kept getting invited to meetings that other people were not invited to, because I wasn't afraid to say negative things. And so, I got promoted super-fast. I was a VP at a major, major PR agency, global PR agency, and, yeah, and actually, it's a great turn of events. I got fired. And I think, you know, everyone who's like, successful, has some story like this, right?
Yeah, tell me more about the firing. That's always intriguing, but you're right. There's so many things that at the time, maybe, and I don't know where your story is about to go, but at the time, it's like, the worst thing in the world, but then in retrospect, in your rear view mirror, you're like, actually, that was the best thing in the world. So, I don't know, tell us your story.
It was. So, for me, I was working for this woman, and I was doing a great job on an account that she had had some trouble with before me and the woman and I, who was the client, like, we just really gelled. She loved working with me. You know, she was from New Jersey, I was from New Jersey. It was, like, it was just a lot of connections that, like I understood her gruffness and like her approach to business and like I could help her through it. And long story short, she called my boss's boss, and said, I no longer want Adele's boss on the account, I just want to work with Adele. So, this was for a Fortune 10 company, so my boss was pretty mad about it. She brought me to her office and fired me.
Oh my god.
And I was like, I don't understand. I think I'm doing such a good job. The client loves me. What? What? You know? What's the reason for this? And she's just like, I don't think it's a fit. So, I walk out of the office. I'm so dejected at this point. I'm like, you know, I'm just, it was just terrible. I get a call from my client, and she said, Adele, were you just fired? I said, Yeah, Kate, I was just fired, and she's just like, forget it, you know, we're gonna hire you. So, my first client was a major Fortune 10 company. That's how I started my company, on the heels of that, but it was a little luck, a little, you know, having good relationships, and keeping those good relationships, and her knowing the value of my work.
Sure.
Regardless of a negative thing that happened, it really was an incredible experience. And like, what an awesome calling card. Every time I walked into a new business meeting, like, who are your clients? I'm like, this company. Are you familiar with them?
Is that good enough for you? So you are very different in the way that it's not like you plan for years and years to start your own PR firm. It just, it just kind of happened. And how long ago was that?
18 years.
Yeah, and you guys are really rocking and rolling now. I mean, the list of your clients is a who's who of organizations around the world. You know, when I opened, I talk about who you're going to call when things go bad, and who you're going to call when things go right. I'd love a story or two that stands out that you're, you know, allowed to tell, obviously, of, maybe one of each. And then, of course, we do want to get into some leadership things. I know you've got some principles and some things, but I'd love to just hear a story. Do you have a story of, you know, I don't know, the good side of PR, but then also the crisis management? I'd love to hear a story or two, if you don't mind.
Yeah, you know, I try with the crisis stuff to be as high level as possible, but I'll tell a positive story, and then I'll bring up a negative that we turned into a positive. One of my first clients after the big company that I mentioned was a cupcake shop, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I want to be in serious public relations, I don't want to do cupcakes. But these girls came to me and they were like, we want to be famous, and we want to be on Oprah, and we think we have better cupcakes than everybody else. And so, I took them through what I call the “so what” test, and my “so what” test is very much like, so you left careers in finance and fashion to start a to start a cupcake shop, so what? So, your cupcakes are $4 a piece. So what? That's actually a deterrent. Your cupcakes are delicious. So what? Like, what's different about the differentiator? And they were like, we sell out our cupcakes every day, and they had a small, small shop that was like a postage stamp in Georgetown, and I was like, okay. I was like, you know, I was like, that's interesting. I was like, I think the fact that you sell out all your cupcakes every day is interesting. And so, we took their countertop, we pushed it closer to the door, and we formed a line out of the door for all the people lining up for the cupcakes. I called in a favor. Frank Bruni from the New York Times, is a friend of mine when I was working in Manhattan, and I was like Frank, you got to come down. You got to come to DC. You got to have some of these cupcakes. I was like, mail them some cupcakes. He came out, saw the line out the door and they are now, 18 years later, there is still a line out the door because people don't want a snobby, stuck up cupcake. They want a cupcake other people are willing to wait in line for and that's Georgetown cupcake, and that line still exists 18 years post.
Well, being from the Maryland, DC area, I was thinking in my head, as you were telling the story, I'm like, are those Georgetown cupcakes? And yes, indeed they are. I know that company so and I know about the line out the door type of thing. Brilliant. Love that. How about a crisis management story?
You know, obviously, I think that's more interesting, because that's what we focus more on, right? So, one of the stories I have is I media trained the highest paid woman executive in the world, and her name was Marilyn Houston. Marilyn ran Lockheed Martin. So, I went into Lockheed Martin, and she had a crisis on her hands and needed help talking on CNN on an issue that they were being really attacked on, right? And her staff gave her a book that was like this thick, of all the talking points she needed to say, and she is looking through and like, I'm coming in the room, and it's just like you see in the movies, right? This huge wooden table, totally intimidating boardroom right, and I walk in, and she's got this thick book and she's mad. She is mad, and she's like, what are you gonna do for me? And I'm like, first of all, I'm gonna take away that book and I'll give you three points that you need to say. These are the only three points that matter, everything else you have to say is just going to add to the conversation, but you really need to bring home these three points. And she turned around to her team, which probably didn't make me very popular with the team, and said this is a teachable moment for you, and then proceeded to take my paper and said exactly what I told her to, and the crisis dissipated. So yeah, that's an example.
With both of those stories, Adele, one of the things that's sticking out to me, and I wrote it down, is just simplicity. So, I see so many consultants and PR firms and ad agencies, boy, it just gets complicated with this, that and the other and even though there's technology and AI and all these things, in both of those scenarios, one thread that I'm pulling out from there is just simplicity, right? You took away the big book, and you said, let's replace it with three talking points. Stick to this. And with the cupcakes, you didn't work on their ingredients, their business plan. Nope. How about we do a line out the door? Like there's just simplicity. And so, I think there's something there and as I was looking at some of the information that you filled out for us when you booked today's appearance, is just that simplicity and leadership as well. So, I don't know. When you hear me reflect that back to you, what comes to mind from a simplicity standpoint?
I just think to like, talk about what it is I do for a living, right? I help people get into the news, I help people get out of the news, I help people get the spotlight, and I help people hide when necessary. And I just think that's like, that is what I do for a living. It's very simple. How to go about it is hard, sometimes narrowing the focus on what's most important, I think, is something a lot of people miss. I think because, you know, I'm really good with pattern recognition. I think that's one of my skill sets. I get there before other people get there, and that's not to make me the hero of my own story, because I'm bad at a lot of other stuff. But, you know, I have a little ADHD I'm sure, like a lot of entrepreneurs do, right? But like, when I have hyper focus, I can usually solve the problem faster than most people. I can get to the heart of the matter faster than most people. Is it going to be perfect? No. That's why I have a team. But you know, yeah, you gotta focus on your strengths.
When you say pattern recognition, can you give us an example of that? Like, I think I'm following you, and I think every now and again I'll get a stroke of brilliance where I have the same thing, but I'd love to hear your version of it. When you say, hey, I'm specifically gifted in pattern recognition, do you have a story around that? Can you give a little bit further explanation to that?
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I've been in the news business my whole life, right? So, 22 years, looking at the news, looking at what's happening, and I can predict with a level of certainty what's going to happen when it's going to be reported, how it's going to be reported. My timing instincts, I think are good, simply because it's a pattern I recognize. So, I don't think that that is true for everyone and I think obviously AI and various data sources are making that easier for other people, but I can sort of predict. I can predict what's going to happen. I think that's my superpower.
Yeah, and I can imagine a just in the industry that you're in and with the people that you help, that's a gift that is probably used a ton. Before I get to my next question, tell me a little bit about that.
Oh, we had one client who literally was like, he's like, what's gonna happen? And, and I'm like, okay, these three things are gonna happen. And he's like, well, I don't like the third thing, and I'm like, but that's going to still happen whether or not you like it, you know? And so, my business partner's a former FBI hostage negotiator, and you would think that he's the tough as nails guy. I'm more the tough as nails. And he was like, let's talk about how you feel about the third thing, where I'm like, we gotta get through the third thing. Let's move through the third thing. Like, this is what we have to do to get past this issue. And like, so he's so much better at helping people manage through the process. That was something that I was really particularly gifted at, because I'm just like, we have to fix it immediately.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that's a nice balance, because you can't be both. Well, a lot of times it's hard to be both. So, we're really good team in that way.
I can guess that, and I'm fortunate enough to be able to, I am interviewing your partner for the show in a few weeks, so I'm excited to get the yin and the yang of both of you, but your countenance, Adele, is such, where you seem very approachable, very happy, go lucky, but there's also it sounds like this thing that you're like, yeah, that's all good, but this, and so that's probably really good for people. I'm thinking of even some of our clients, in some of the industries that we serve, whether it's real estate and mortgage or even manufacturing, we have clients that are going through a crisis. Sometimes they're little mini crisis, and sometimes they're big ones, and I don't know, in fact, I would, this just my point of view, I don't know what you see but I don't think most people seek out people like you or firms like you. They kind of think that they can handle it themselves. And what I see is people digging themselves in a bigger hole when they're just like try to grit their teeth through it, or figure it out themselves or whatever, or maybe not admit how bad it is or those types of things. Any advice or insights that you might have for that line of thinking?
"I would say that if you are in this mode of thinking and you are in business, you probably need our help, and what I call that mode is the fairness fallacy. And I call it that because if a crisis happens, mini, medium or major, like however you want to shake it, the person is usually thinking in their head, this just isn't there. I've had 20 years of an illustrious career. I've been right for 15 years. I've always been a person that other people think is X, but now they think Y, you probably have a crisis on your hands, and getting out of that fairness fallacy mode usually requires some expert help."
Before we hit record, you and I talked about predictive memory and kind of connecting dots from what you just said there about the fairness fallacy and predictive memory. Would you mind defining, you know, how you would define predictive memory and then maybe connect those dots?
Oh my gosh, Jason, I feel like you're so much more qualified to define predictive memory than me.
We’ll bat it back and forth. Let's throw it on the table, and then we'll kick it around a little bit.
I'll give it a shot. So, in neuroscience, there's like, fact based, or declarative memory, I think is what it's called, right? Which is like, if I put a key in the door and I jiggle it a little bit, I know based on my past experience, that the door will open, right? I have a memory related to that. But I also have something called predictive memory and predictive memory is the idea that if I say something, people are going to react in a certain way, right? So that's the memory we're talking about. And studies show judgment and decision making, one of the studies we have in our book convinced me. One of the things that we say in the book is that people have a set point of influence and convincing by about the age six.
Yeah.
And so, if an executive got his way when he was six years old by sulking on the playground or bullying other people, his set point, his or her set point might be to sulk or bully people in the office, because that is what they know works, and what they know has worked for them in the past. And so, they're unlikely, because their predictive memory says, don’t try anything new, because we know the result of this approach, we don't know the result of something else. And so, people get stuck in these patterns, and they're only so convincing, they're only so influential because they're not willing to try new things. And our book is just full of tactics to try new things and to look at things differently. And you know, I think that that's just so critical for leaders, they have to be open to change.
Well, connecting that to the fairness fallacy, if the person that you just described is the bully, they learned it at six, they've been continuing to do it, probably with success most of their career, but then, say, a big crisis hits, and it's not working, and people aren't listening and then there's the pile on effect with social media and other things that happen, boy, that might not seem very fair. And then, you know what the heck then do you do about it? And so, yeah, your book, convinced me, by the way, available on Amazon and everywhere else, and we'll put it in in the show notes. And the name of your company, I don't think we've mentioned it, is the convincing company. And so, there's definitely a thread there. But I think that, you know, the whole reason we started our company Rewire 10 years ago is because of the way that people think and we and, you know, the older we get, the more hardwired our brains get based on past experiences. But the truth of the matter is, and the data supports this, that we can all change the way that we're thinking. Sometimes it isn't as easy as other times, it depends on how ingrained or hardwired some of those things are for us, but in fact, an old dog can learn new tricks. And so, I think that a lot of the work that you and I do are very similar. Different reasons, right? But typically, people will call us from a development standpoint, before the crisis, and if they do a good enough job with that, maybe there won't be a crisis. But if they don't do any of that, and there is a crisis, then, yeah, that's right, that's when they need you. And a lot of it is, you know, based in the way that we're thinking and neuroscience. So yeah, I love exactly where you're going there. Besides simplicity, pattern recognition, the fairness fallacy, is there anything else from a leadership standpoint, Adele, that, as you work with clients that just stick out when things are either going bad or there is a crisis to manage, anything else that just sticks out to you.
I would say the person who is malleable is the person who will get through the crisis the easiest, right? Like, if they can recognize soon enough their own part of why they got where they're going, or why they got into the crisis in the first place, right, the better they're going to be in being able to recover. So, you want to be able to forgive yourself, you want to be able to get past it. You want to have the mindset as you were saying before, to understand that if I take certain actions, I can get through it, right? If I do certain things, I'm going to get to the other side of light, right? So, I am going through a dark tunnel and there is light at the end of the tunnel, but there are certain actions you have to take, some of which you're not gonna like, you know, some of which you're gonna maybe have to apologize for something you don't want to apologize for. Maybe you're gonna have to give other people mitigation you didn't want to give, you know? Maybe you gotta give people face saving techniques, right? So, like, and then some people, you don't want to give them the opportunity to save face, because they're horrible, and they were horrible to you, and you know how horrible they were and maybe people externally know how horrible they are. It doesn't really matter. To get past the crisis, you may have to give that person a pass. And man, that is hard to do. That is really hard to swallow for a lot of leaders. That’s difficult.
I really like this line of thinking, or like, I'm intrigued by it, because I know that I've been guilty of this, and I see it all the time when the stuff really does hit the fan, and you've got things that have worked in the past, or there's a result that you want to get, but it's similar to some of the things that you just mentioned. Maybe you have to apologize when you don't want to, mitigate or sometimes, if it's law, settle when you don't think it's right, and based on principle, you don't want to do that, but you do want this result. You're in the convincing industry, Adele. How do you convince those leaders when they go, no, I'm not going to settle. We're right. We don't want to give them a dime. Or no, I don't want to apologize, because I am right here, Adele, why do you want me to apologize? Like, I'm sure you've run across that line of thinking, and you talk about being malleable, but no, I'm not going to be malleable because that's wrong. Like, what are some of the techniques that you use to get around that or convince them anyway?
There is something that we use called forensic listening, and this is something that we developed from Chip's expertise as an FBI hostage negotiator, right? Like, how do you de-escalate someone who is at the worst moment of their life? And really, for executives, who are experiencing a crisis, that is their hostage moment, right? Like they're the hostage, they feel like they're being hostage, like they're they are at the worst moment of their career when everything is on the line, their legacy, who people think they are, it is serious business for them. And so, you know, that's just a very difficult position, so you have to really dial into their emotions in a way that no one else has. That even as they're going through the crisis situation, they feel you're so attuned to why they got there, the unfairness of it, and why it's unfair. Why face saving mechanisms aren't going to work, why mitigation is frustrating for them, and I can know that so deeply, that when I give them the solution, they feel open to it, because I listened to them at that level, right? Like, I listened to, you know, what's their tone when they talk about certain things, like, what's the pitch, tone and cadence? How do they how do they change when they talk about certain things? What's their emotion when they talk about the issues, how it came about, what caused the crisis? What are the themes and stories they keep returning to over and over again? Usually, that will tell you a lot about what's really weighing on their mind. And then finally, and this is more of a visual thing, but a body positioning when they're talking to me about certain things, are they leaning in? Are they leaning out? Are they frustrated? Do their eyes seem to just glaze over because they're so mad about how they're being perceived? All of these things will tell me where the solution lies. And so, I look at that and I might parrot back to them, like, hey, I understand that your leadership being questioned here is one of the most frustrating things that has ever happened to you as an executive but what I can tell you is I know that you have energy around all the good things you've done, and we'll get to that, but first you're gonna have to do these three things. So, you know, it's an art, honestly, because we've made these decisions hundreds of times, so we know how the executive is going to react to it, different personalities, what will occur, but it's different for everybody and every crisis is unique, and that's kind of why I love what we do. But you know, it really is setting it up for the person in a way that you're just listening to them deeply and offering them a solution that resonates with them.
When you get certified to be a coach, there's all kinds of different listening, you know, reflective listening, deep listening, but I've never heard forensic listening. Like that's even deeper listening. And so yeah, I love that. You've got the pattern recognition, but because of different people's personalities, perspective, experiences, there's the pattern recognition, but it's also how is this person going to react in this moment right now, with all that background? And so that's where the forensic listening comes in. You overlay it with your pattern recognition, because you have done this hundreds of times, and then you come up with that solution for that particular moment, for that particular person. Yeah, forensic listening.
And it's different than active listening, because active listening is just for de-escalation purposes. It's just taking the person from a 10 to a five to a two. They're open to hearing your suggestion. Forensic listening is the art and science of examining a conversation after it happens, because we believe words leave clues, and most people do not listen at this level, and they don't listen at this level at multiple times. So, for instance, I know executives. This is, this is one of the benefits of being in business for as long as I have. Being in business for a long time, I talked to executive continuously over the course of my career, and some of them know me really well. So when a crisis happens, they'll call me up and they're like, Adele, like, you know me, like we've talked about it and you know where I stand on these things, like I'm being attacked for these principles, and I'm just I'm so upset, and because I listen to them deeply over time, I validate what I know about them, and they feel a connection. So, they hire, they hire us like that, because they know we can fix it. But if people practice this in business, not in what I do, but if people practiced this in business, the outcomes your ability to be better than your competitors, because you refer back to the conversation you've had notes, because you pay attention at a level, your business will be successful.
"You will be successful because most people really want to be validated for how they want the world to see them, and most of us don't get validated at home. We don't get validated anywhere, right?"
So true.
So, when we're a leader, we really want that targeted validation, and that can only be gotten through looking at the lens of your conversations over time, not just in the moment.
One of the sentences in coaching that we talk to our coaches all the time about and we do our best to practice this is when we're in the middle of a coaching session, one of the best lines is, hey, I was thinking about what you said last time, and then whatever you say after that you have got the client's attention, because it shows all the things that you just mentioned. You see them. You were listening to them. I love your line, words leave clues, and it just gives us recognition and validation, which we need at the at the soul level, you know, we need that as human beings. So, oh, Adele, so good. So good. I'm gonna switch topics here as we kind of round third and head towards home during our conversation. Any particular projects that you all are working on that you're particularly excited about these days?
Yeah, we're doing a workshop called “Training so good it's Criminal”.
Oh boy. Well.
I know. A really fun play on words. I am a marketer at heart, right?
Oh, yeah, we can tell, Adele. No doubt.
Super fun. It's super fun. But, you know, it's this whole idea of teaching people how to be more convincing, teaching them how to push past their comfort zones and do things that they haven't done before to get great results. I mean, that's where we are, yeah.
Can you titillate us a little bit? What is, I mean, the title alone, the name of the workshop, is good, it's training so good it's criminal, an example of what one might experience in that type of training.
Yeah. So, one of the things we do is we have a role player who's an Emmy Award winning actor who comes in and acts as a hostage taker. We take people through a hostage scenario. It's not scary, it's just one of those things where we say, okay, here's the heightened situation. You're six people who are going to become a team very quickly and we are going to deescalate this hostage shaker. We're going to forensically listen to him, we're going to take notes, and then we're going to apply what we had, and then we're going to apply it to business.
So good.
All run by Chip, who's a former FBI hostage, just like he did at Quantico. So, people get that, like, very cool experience, but we then set it to business. So really true crime meets business.
Well, I'm super intrigued. Really, really good. When we'll put links and everything into the show notes with that as well. Adele, so good. When I was doing research on you, I was kind of like, definitely, like, okay, this is going to be a particularly good interview, and you did not disappoint. So, thank you very much. And listeners, like I said in the beginning, call Adele when things are good and you want to promote it to the world, but also, if things go bad, give Adele a buzz. Adele, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for your generosity with your expertise with PR and yeah. Can't wait until our next conversation. Thank you.
Thank you.
So, so many good things from Adele there. First of all, her training so good it's criminal. I really like that. And I'm thinking about CEOs and COOs and founders in a room working on hostage negotiation techniques and how that could help them. You know, the crossover from a business standpoint of that, but then there were just so many things, pattern recognition, fairness fallacy. I had an insight and just a reminder about the being malleable and open to different ideas when you want to get certain results, just that whole thing, and then forensic listening, Ah, man, when something needs to be deescalated, to really that whole thing that she said about words, leaving clues, and listening to tone, emotion, body language, themes and stories, like, that’s something as a coach and as a parent and as a husband and a brother to siblings, just that forensic listening. So that's something that I had some insights on, and will continue to practice but as we end every episode of The Insight Interviews, it's not much about what my insights were, but what insights did you have?
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